Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2 and support for other playing styles/subgenres

[transmission89]

I think this post pretty much encapsulates my problems with PF2. In a lot of areas, it comes off as a system that assumes that you are playing with players that have played D&D so much that it can be taken for granted that the can immediately identify the cause of the problem. Or that once they hit level 2, they will immediately buy the power rune and buy the striking rune at level 4. Or that will immediately recognize that you should trip wraiths but intimidate ogres.

But you don’t though? Aren’t these what the recall knowledge checks are for? Or in the case of haunts as a problem, investigating the area?

Are these not also valid 5e, nay, any d&d “problems”? Learning effective strategies against certain enemies, over coming puzzling encounters or (for some editions) learning effective feats/items/abilities to take?

I guess I’m just struggling to understand what you’re saying here that is particular to this system? Or have I misunderstood what you’re saying?

 

[kenada]

I’m curious about this, because I don’t see the VP subsystem as any different from skill challenges. Both of them are mechanisms to create more open-ended challenges that can’t be resolved in a single roll.

They are similar. Skill challenges strike me as a predecessor to countdown clocks, and the VP subsystem is basically an implementation of clocks. For whatever reason, the VP subsystem felt more organic than skill challenges in play. Maybe it’s the countdown clock versus the successes before failures mechanic?

One difference between the two is that clocks take it as a given you will succeed. Where you fail is either when you run out of time or because other clocks catch up to you. Those are both things that can be framed easily in terms of the characters’ understanding. X failures feels comparatively arbitrary and dissociated.

Thinking about it a bit, VP uses an abstract points system, so anything that can generate points will advance your clock. That could be successes, but it could be other things (e.g., deeds will progress your reputation clocks). I think that also helps make it feel better in play.

Nothing says you couldn’t have other things contribute successes to skill challenges, but I can’t recall their being framed that way in the stuff I ran. They would list a difficulty level and the primary and secondary skills. With more experience with e.g., clocks, I might handle things differently. However, I wouldn’t use them just to have a skill challenge.

I’d also add that similar mechanics can still fee different in practice. 5e owes a lot to 4e, but it feels very different in practice. Even a game like PF2 that aims for a similarly tactical approach ends up feeling quite different once the swords come out.

 

[transmission89]

They are similar. Skill challenges strike me as a predecessor to countdown clocks, and the VP subsystem is basically an implementation of clocks. For whatever reason, the VP subsystem felt more organic than skill challenges in play. Maybe it’s the countdown clock versus the successes before failures mechanic?

One difference between the two is that clocks take it as a given you will succeed. Where you fail is either when you run out of time or because other clocks catch up to you. Those are both things that can be framed easily in terms of the characters’ understanding. X failures feels comparatively arbitrary and dissociated.

Thinking about it a bit, VP uses an abstract points system, so anything that can generate points will advance your clock. That could be successes, but it could be other things (e.g., deeds will progress your reputation clocks). I think that also helps make it feel better in play.

Nothing says you couldn’t have other things contribute successes to skill challenges, but I can’t recall their being framed that way in the stuff I ran. They would list a difficulty level and the primary and secondary skills. With more experience with e.g., clocks, I might handle things differently. However, I wouldn’t use them just to have a skill challenge.

I’d also add that similar mechanics can still fee different in practice. 5e owes a lot to 4e, but it feels very different in practice. Even a game like PF2 that aims for a similarly tactical approach ends up feeling quite different once the swords come out.

Yes, I agree with this. I think the VP system is a good refinement on the skill challenges. It explores the same space but I think benefits from the lessons learnt in the way you’ve stated.

The way presented here allows a more generic framework to apply to a variety of situations.

I think it was mummy’s mask AP they appeared in first with the knowledge points in the library.
It at least gave me food for thought about how I might approach similar scenarios in any games system really.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

I think this post pretty much encapsulates my problems with PF2. In a lot of areas, it comes off as a system that assumes that you are playing with players that have played D&D so much that it can be taken for granted that the can immediately identify the cause of the problem. Or that once they hit level 2, they will immediately buy the power rune and buy the striking rune at level 4. Or that will immediately recognize that you should trip wraiths but intimidate ogres.

Not at all, the books teach as well as any other game how the GM presents the basic narrative of the game and the players engage with it. There is in fact, an entire chapter of the core rulebook entitled "How to play the game." That covers the player facing basics of all of this, alternatively, I've had players learn it from me (the GM) and the other players willing to read rulebooks.

Seperately, I think its ok for players to cut their teeth on different monster types by experience, between recall knowledge checks and experimentation and encounters that aren't as hard as possible, they'll learn, the game wouldnt be as fun if there was nothing to learn and no room to improve. The game's difficulty isnt truly so tight that the occasional wasted action is really life or death.

 

[Teemu]

How?

I mean, exactly?

Can I assume you're talking about the case where the heroes have successfully detected the haunt?

How do you describe this? As opposed to an "undetected" haunt, I mean? If you hear spooky moaning, how do you differentiate listening to it "clueless" as opposed to "informed"?

Since Recall Knowledge is an action, do you require the heroes to win initiative? (It's no use identifying a trap if you don't have time disabling it before it activates) Or how do you make it work?

If we’re still in exploration mode, the action cost doesn’t matter, so any character can try understanding the detected phenomenon with Recall Knowledge rules. If we’re in encounter mode, a character can spend an action to Recall Knowledge as usual.

Obviously if the haunt is a simple hazard and isn’t detected, it just activates and does its thing, the end.

How do I describe it? When a character “listens” or tries to understand the detected haunt, I make a secret Recall Knowledge check to determine what exactly they understand and piece together. In encounter mode that does take an action.

 

[dave2008]

Wasn’t the Medium character in Occult Adventures also Occultism based.

Sorry, I don't know what your talking about

 

[dave2008]

They are similar. Skill challenges strike me as a predecessor to countdown clocks, and the VP subsystem is basically an implementation of clocks. For whatever reason, the VP subsystem felt more organic than skill challenges in play. Maybe it’s the countdown clock versus the successes before failures mechanic?

One difference between the two is that clocks take it as a given you will succeed. Where you fail is either when you run out of time or because other clocks catch up to you. Those are both things that can be framed easily in terms of the characters’ understanding. X failures feels comparatively arbitrary and dissociated.

Thinking about it a bit, VP uses an abstract points system, so anything that can generate points will advance your clock. That could be successes, but it could be other things (e.g., deeds will progress your reputation clocks). I think that also helps make it feel better in play.

Nothing says you couldn’t have other things contribute successes to skill challenges, but I can’t recall their being framed that way in the stuff I ran. They would list a difficulty level and the primary and secondary skills. With more experience with e.g., clocks, I might handle things differently. However, I wouldn’t use them just to have a skill challenge.

I’d also add that similar mechanics can still fee different in practice. 5e owes a lot to 4e, but it feels very different in practice. Even a game like PF2 that aims for a similarly tactical approach ends up feeling quite different once the swords come out.

It has been a while since I reviewed the PF2 rulebooks. Is the VP system in the CRB or GMG?

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

It has been a while since I reviewed the PF2 rulebooks. Is the VP system in the CRB or GMG?

GMG

 

[FrozenNorth]

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[FrozenNorth]

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