Pathfinder 2 GM Experience

The PF2 play experience can be great. The character creation in PF2 can be fun.
But what about the PF2 GM experience?


One thing that struck me as odd was on page 487 of the Gamemastering section of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook -> "Building your own adventure is much more challenging than using a published one"
It seems to be saying "buy our APs"
 

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Eric V

Hero
The PF2 play experience can be great. The character creation in PF2 can be fun.
But what about the PF2 GM experience?


One thing that struck me as odd was on page 487 of the Gamemastering section of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook -> "Building your own adventure is much more challenging than using a published one"
It seems to be saying "buy our APs"

Maybe. It's true though, it's a lot easier. Why did you find it odd that they include that?
 


Jimmy Dick

Adventurer
It definitely is more difficult to build your own adventures. Balancing content over time can be a difficult endeavor. The more experience one has with doing so counteracts that, but as always, acquiring experience can be painful for the players.

Don't forget, one can always purchase content and use it in any way they want in building their own campaigns. Whether it be inspiration, pulling pieces to use in adventures, or flat out using the content 100%, GMs have the luxury of being able to purchase content and using it.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
One thing that struck me as odd was on page 487 of the Gamemastering section of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook -> "Building your own adventure is much more challenging than using a published one"
It seems to be saying "buy our APs"
Could it be you're really asking "is making your own adventures harder in PF2 than in other Dndish games?"

If so, my answer would be "not really".

If, however, you ARE asking "is it really true making your own adventures is harder than using published ones?" then I would say "yes of course, at least at first when you start out as a new games master".

(As you become more experienced, you learn to ignore the guidelines on experience and encounter balancing, because you realize it's all a sham, an illusion, anyway...!)
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
The PF2 play experience can be great. The character creation in PF2 can be fun.
But what about the PF2 GM experience?

One thing that struck me as odd was on page 487 of the Gamemastering section of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook -> "Building your own adventure is much more challenging than using a published one"
It seems to be saying "buy our APs"
I’d give them it seems more challenging, but I’m not sure it actually is. I agree with Morrus, it almost always requires more work to run a published adventure than to put together my own. It seems more challenging than it is because systems don’t really teach GMs how to put together an effective adventure. If all you’ve run or played are published adventures, then that’s how you think an adventure needs to be written, but modules (modern ones in particular) usually aren’t exemplars of adventure design.

The issue with Paizo’s adventures in particular is they’re usually designed to be read rather than be run, so their keys are generally not good. A moment that drove this home for me was when I was playing through Thornkeep at Origins, and the GM tried to run it out of the book. There were a handful of times when the game ground to a halt while he had to page around and look things up.

We’ll see what the GMG has to say on adventure design. I assume they’ll have at least some advice. If you have a good structure, running your own stuff requires very little actual work once things get going.
 

Kel Ardan

Explorer
My two biggest issues after running a couple sessions so far:

1. I keep forgetting to roll secret rolls (too used to open table rolls).
2. Hellknight Hill is written just like Kenada said, like a reading source instead of a module to run.
(You keep having to find things all over the book to go through scenes instead of having boxes telling the players what they see and having people and creature stats in same area). This really can grind a game to
a stand still when looking for things especially when the newer system of the actual game runs smoothly.

Other than that I'm loving the system and the players are really enjoying the 3 action economy.
 

TreChriron

Adventurer
Supporter
Wow. The title of this post is somewhat misleading, no?

Probably should have been "Paizo shills own AP in GM Section and I don't like it". I give extra kudos to @Kel Ardan for including the content I was expecting in the thread... đź’–

So, anyone else have actual GM experiences with the game? Thoughts so far?
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
Wow. The title of this post is somewhat misleading, no?

Probably should have been "Paizo shills own AP in GM Section and I don't like it". I give extra kudos to @Kel Ardan for including the content I was expecting in the thread... đź’–

So, anyone else have actual GM experiences with the game? Thoughts so far?
I’m running a sandbox hexcrawl in PF2. I posted about it over in the actual play thread. The gist of it is:
  • PF2 is pretty amenable to homebrew. The way customization works makes it easy to repurpose, tweak, and reflavor things.
  • Exploration mode works really well. I was able to integrate it with the hexcrawl procedure I use very easily. Transitioning between scales also works smoothly.
We haven’t run combat yet, though I did run a one-shot for the group before we switched. I also posted about it in the actual play thread.

I like the way the new action economy works, and the system is in general more consistent and easier to run. There are very few exceptions to the way things work, though the trade-off is there are complex interactions that arise between traits. For example, Quick Draw has you Interact to draw a weapon and then make a Strike. Interact has the manipulate trait, so anything that triggers off manipulate actions (like Attack of Opportunity) will trigger. I prefer this because it’s still easier to adjudicate than a list of exceptions.
 

Rhianni32

Adventurer
Heavy Fall of Plaguestone spoilers below

Ran Fall of Plaguestone last Friday for my regular TTRPG group and this was our first time playing PF2. Here are my thoughts as a GM...

1: Crits are deadly. We had a TPK in the first fight. The 2nd level wolf that attacks Bort's merchant caravan got two crits. each one dropped a fully healthy character. With its +11 to attack against 1st level characters it crits on a 17-20 as most of the PCs had an 18 AC. On average its crit damage will be 19 damage.
I fear what the 3rd bear they will encounter in part 1 when they are still 1st level will do to them. Looking at higher level monsters vs estimate of bonuses that PCs will have, I don't see this problem going away.
Solution: There were some bad player tactics due to not knowing the rules and I had Bort and his crew save the party by finishing off the wolf but players can't counteract lucky dice rolls.
I'm going to ignore the errata with Hero Points and let the players use it while dying to bring them to 1 HP so they can move around and act. We had it where it stabilized them at 0 but for all intents and purposes they were still out of the fight and not very heroic.

2: Crafting is too expensive. Its already apparent that apart from allowing the party to have access to things they cannot buy, crafting sucks because its too expensive. The formula cost is rough especially if you just want to craft a single item. One of my players running a Rogue wanted to make their own poisons and it seemed too cost prohibitive.
Solutions: I have several plans

Any player that wants to be a crafter and gets a crafting feat, can get their monetary treasure in crafting part with a 50% bonus. e.g. party of 4, 3 PCs get 100 gold, 1 Rogue with alchemy to make poisons will get 150 gold worth of non descript "ingredients" that cannot be sold for money but can go towards any crafting. 50% seems like it will help but not make is so the rogue is using a poison every battle, every attack and causing balance issues.

Formulas will be given out as quest rewards and social interaction skill challenge type mini games.

Factions will offer free formulas. I haven't delved into factions in PF2 but presuming they are like factions in 5ed, PCs can join a faction and spend time earning favor and ranks for rewards. This seems like a good format for a crafting guild that will give free formulas to its members in good standing.

3: I love the detailed mechanics. 5ed DMing for me was a chore. Players would say they want to try something. Then I had to do all the figuring out of the mechanics. what skill is most applicable. what is the DC for this, how successful are they, and what kind of precedence is being set for all future uses of this action a player is wanting to try. Since there was little meat behind the 5ed rules its on the DM and if they don't allow the player to do it they are being a mean jerk.
In PF2 though there is usually an action that is close to what the players are wanting to do enough so that there is a basis to form rule decisions off of.

4: PF2 has a lot more decisions in the game. e.g. get something now or get more available options to future decisions. I'm seeing a common reoccurring pattern in the rules. Shield usage is a common example. spend 1 action to defend yourself. You may or may not be attacked so potentially your 1 action is wasted. But it gives AC bonus and the option to block some damage.
Magic Staves are similar. you can spend a spell slot during your daily preparation to gain spontaneous casting of the staff's spell list vs locking in your spell slot if you are a wizard. But you may not need that staff of divination or staff of fire during that day you spend your spell slot on.
My players had a few complaints about some of the changes (primarily about shield AC not always being on) but after explaining the above on opportunity cost it went over better.

5: PF2 combat seems to work better as a tactical miniature battle simulator than a theatre of the mind. With its level of mechanics (especially traits) and the 3 action economy, combat felt more like a video game than regular TTRPG combat. For better or for worse is a matter of what you want in your game.

6: PF2 also feels like a collectible card game with the trait system, so I embraced it and created cards for my players. I used magic set editor and loaded up Tintagel's 5ed card template. I edited the text file format to load up the various action point icons of PF2.
Green Border = at will type actions, spells, and affects that have unlimited use.
Orange Border = focus abilities or other things that recharge during the day.
Red Border = abilities recharge only during daily preparations like spells.
Purple Border = consumable magic items.
Blue Border = permanent magic items.

My players loved this and it was a big hit. It allows me to pass out magic items for them to hold, use, and trade also. It also solved a problem I knew we were going to have. Between normal actions, skill actions, class unlocked actions, spells, feats, ancestories…. we were going to be overwhelmed with what the PCs could do, and where to find it. in the core rulebook and heaven forbid when other books are published. The character sheets have these all over the place on different pages we were going to want 1 place to quickly look and pick what the PCs were doing.
Now the players can have their character deck. Far easier to change a load out if you retrain a feat, or buy and sell magic items then to be erasing and rewriting on your character sheet.

7: Secret rolls are awesome. Players no longer have to pretend to play with in character knowledge separate from their player knowledge of how to act. This will help with immersion. They failed a nature check while checking the caustic wolf but didn't know they failed. We forgot for me to roll a Medicine check on Bort when he was eating his turnip porridge and they rolled a "1" so automatically knew what I told them as " you think its an allergic reaction" was a lie. Missed a great RP opportunity with this one as I should have rolled it but we are all learning this system. As a GM I like it because since its secret, it will support the story I am trying to tell vs having the players fight against it with player vs character knowledge.
 

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