Pathfinder 2 GM Experience

5ekyu

Hero
I only played PF1 when it first launched but went back to 3.5.
I'm sure Paizo wasn't the first to invent the idea of a secret roll. I'm also sure I encountered them at some point but for whatever reason they didn't resonate with me as they do now.
I remember secret rolls as far back as... 80s. Tagging domecdkills as secret by default but also saying others can be if GM chooses seems like a half-measure.

I myself am not a fan of rolling anything as GM, do I dont need to do secret rolls and would myself ditch that in PF2 if somehow GMing it. But, that's neither here nor there.

I mean, even thec5e DMG presents discussions about secret rolls, hoes over plusses, minuses, why it might be good or bad, etc and leave it to the FM to choose case-by-case.

Is having a few skills labelled as "secret" somehow a major improvement? Perhaps to some,
 

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Rhianni32

Adventurer
I remember secret rolls as far back as... 80s. Tagging domecdkills as secret by default but also saying others can be if GM chooses seems like a half-measure.

I myself am not a fan of rolling anything as GM, do I dont need to do secret rolls and would myself ditch that in PF2 if somehow GMing it. But, that's neither here nor there.

I mean, even thec5e DMG presents discussions about secret rolls, hoes over plusses, minuses, why it might be good or bad, etc and leave it to the FM to choose case-by-case.

Is having a few skills labelled as "secret" somehow a major improvement? Perhaps to some,

Yes there is a difference to some of us between the every edition's DMG fluff section of "This is a roleplaying game and as the DM you can make up your own rules! Here are some possible ideas that you might or might not want to consider at some point if they feel like it"
vs
"this is the PF2 rules on how recall knowledge is used...".
 
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5ekyu

Hero
Yes there is a difference to some of us between the every edition's DMG fluff section of "This is a roleplaying game and as the DM you can make up your own rules! Here are some possible ideas that you might or might not want to consider at some point if they feel like it"
vs
"this is the PF2 rules on how recall knowledge is used...".
I find it awesome that that is how you see it. It shows there are definitely room fircfifferdnt views and percrptiond.

Thanks.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
There are a lot of incredibly "small" rules in PF2; that is rules regulating every little part of an action or sequence you might otherwise just use GM Fiat to resolve.

For example, the rules include a Point Out action. You need to track the "visibility status" of each ambush foe relative to each PC, in stages such as "unobserved", "hidden" etc. Then you can "upgrade" that status for your friends by spending this action. But does this simply mean the target becomes freely targetable by everyone? No siree. It still remains hidden, but is no longer unobserved!

Another example would be Recall Knowledge. On one hand you have detailed (finicky) regulation, requiring a roll to get hold of each snippet of knowledge regarding a foe's strength and weaknesses. At the same time, there's next to no guidance on what exactly a successful Recall Knowledge should provide!

Furthermore: on one hand I get the impression you're supposed to pay the (heavy) cost of setting aside an action in combat to glean this information. On the other, there are plenty of feats that talk about doing Recall Knowledge at various times. There's even abilities that lets Bards and Wizards get the results from five or six (!) Recalls when they cast a spell.

The overall impression? You're supposed to have this list of useful and not so useful factoids prepared for every monster (resistant to cold, bad reflex saves, lots of hit points, weakness to cold iron, etc etc)...

...and have the players keep track of which such factoids have been "acquired" for each monster.

All this incredible rules detail... for what? The actual "factoids" are still completely undefined and up to the GM to select and list, with zero help from the rules or the monster stat blocks themselves.

Not to mention the horrific expense of it all. Spending an action with a 50% success rate might be something a player would contemplate... if that told him and the entire party everything (or at least much) of what they need to do ("use fire against trolls")... But the Recall Knowledge action specifically calls for a single info snippet!

I have games mastered D&D and other games for thirty years and I can't see - at all - how to run this "subsystem" as written. Instead of spending an awful lot of combat actions on trying to suss out weaknesses, the players simply whale on the monster brute force. They conclude Recall actions are a complete waste of time inside an encounter, and I can't say they're wrong.

And if you can attempt Recalls outside of combat... well, then it would be much simpler to just spill the beans and tell them what they want to know, wouldn't it...? I can't figure it out.

Zapp

Ps. I realize you're now itching to explain to me how Recall Knowledge works, and what the RAW and RAI is.

Please understand, in the context of this thread, I didn't merely want to say "PF2 is DEFINITELY not for the weak of mind" - I wanted to provide actual specific examples of the INCREDIBLE rules density, especially compared to 5th edition.

Plus, if you know me, I have kinda sorted it anyway - I'm giving out "much" info on a successful roll, not just a single tidbit. And I've flagged to my players that for the moment they should focus on those feats that provide info inside combat, not outside of it (since I don't know how to run them). Prime example the "gain 6 Recall Knowledge" feats that basically make no sense whatsoever.

So please tell me everything about Recall Knowledge, but maybe it's best to start a designated thread for that, and have this one still be about GM experience with PF2. Thx

Edit: formatting (what looks good in the app, doesn't on desktop)
 
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Rhianni32

Adventurer
Ps. I realize you're now itching to explain to me how Recall Knowledge works, and what the RAW and RAI is.

Actually I am itching to ask you why you play PF2. Each post from you seems to be how some rule is the worst possible iteration you have seen in a ruleset or that Paizo should be ashamed to have made PF2 at all.
e.g. recall knowledge has a horrific expense and is a complete waste of time.

So please tell me everything about Recall Knowledge, but maybe it's best to start a designated thread for that, and have this one still be about GM experience with PF2. Thx
Sounds like that is best. I am (honestly no sarcasm) interested in your ideas. Recall knowledge is a good bases but it does need some refinement.
 



Staffan

Legend
At least at low levels, combat is fairly swingy because crits are more common than in the previous edition. Even a basic goblin warrior has +8 to hit (against a typical AC of 17), and if there are many of them they can get +2 for flanking.

And if you're fighting something tougher, like a bugbear thug (level 2), that's an attack bonus of +10 which means they crit on 17-20.

On the other hand, you have more hitpoints (both because of the kicker from your ancestry, and because you get more from your class), and healing is more available (heal cast at 1st level with 2 actions heals 1d8+8 which is huge, and you also have Treat Wounds for 2d8 every hour). But it feels more dangerous.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
At least at low levels, combat is fairly swingy because crits are more common than in the previous edition. Even a basic goblin warrior has +8 to hit (against a typical AC of 17), and if there are many of them they can get +2 for flanking.

And if you're fighting something tougher, like a bugbear thug (level 2), that's an attack bonus of +10 which means they crit on 17-20.

On the other hand, you have more hitpoints (both because of the kicker from your ancestry, and because you get more from your class), and healing is more available (heal cast at 1st level with 2 actions heals 1d8+8 which is huge, and you also have Treat Wounds for 2d8 every hour). But it feels more dangerous.
Every monster crits on rolling a 20 (except in fringe cases).

Monsters your level, however, likely crits on rolling 19 and 18 as well. This crit risk range only widens as monsters gain levels relative to you, which gets compounded by the greater base damage of high level foes.

That said, the most important factor is the same as in every edition: the fact the extra hit points from leveling to 2 or 3 is a huge increase in staying power. Levelling up to 2nd level can easily give you more than 50% extra HP (and in certain editions up to 100%).

In contrast, getting the same hp increase at level 10 or 20 is not nearly such a big deal. (You gain maybe +5% which no longer represents a good monster swing, but maybe less than a third of one.

So the "crit math" change as you level.

But especially at 1st level a crit will be devastating, and thus, make the game feel swingy.

This gets less swingy already as you level up, not because the math changes (you still risk getting critted) but simply because once you're off the lowest levels, a single crit is no longer such an overwhelming deal.
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
We had our second session today of my hexcrawl campaign. This time, we had a full group. I started off helping the player who couldn’t make the first session create a new character. In spite of his newness, walking him through character creation went comparatively quickly to the rest of the group for the first session. I think it really pays when you don’t know the system well to follow your ABCs and build towards a concept rather than trying to look at mechanics first then decide what you want to be.

This was my third session running the game. I’m getting more comfortable with running the skill actions. What I particularly like is the way adjudicating any situation often comes down to narrating what you want in terms of skill actions.

There was a situation when the alchemist noted he could make booze, so if the party could get some bananas, he could make booze out of them. Monkeys had bananas, so the rogue went over to try to convince the monkeys to give him some bananas by offering them some of the squirrels he acquired while Subsisting. That is, he wanted to Make an Impression than Request some bananas. I made the DC for making the impression hard, but he rolled really well. He then rolled just so-so for the Request, so he ended up having to give the monkeys more squirrels than he initially offered. While we were doing this, the player was describing how he was scratching himself and making monkey noises, so I thought it would be totally awesome to just roll with it. Now they have monkey friends. :ROFLMAO:

I made a few tweaks to how I ran my hexcrawl procedure, which seemed to work well. That doesn’t really have much to do with PF2 per se, though exploration activities are still very helpful for clarifying the intentions of the players. Taking something like “I want to keep a look out for danger” and turning that into the Scout activity is very helpful, since it helps quantify the benefits of what they are doing.

Combat-wise, we got into a lot of fights with gray oozes. I need to use the monster creation rules to build them out properly, so I was winging it based on a mix of features from gelatinous cubes and ochre jellies. The only actually fought one, but it was a +2 encounter. That should have been dangerous, but they took advantage of their mobility (and my bad dice luck) to keep it from getting a good shot at them.

Recall Knowledge came up a few times. I made sure to ask my PCs for a topic, and then I determined the results. Mostly, they failed. I handled critical failures by giving them incorrect information. In spite of the fact all oozes they encountered were the same kind (gray ooze), they thought they had encountered a bunch of different kinds, which they called swampsters. During the fight, one wanted to roll medicine to gauge how their attacks was affecting the ooze. It was a stretch (though fitting for his ancestry), but I gave it to him. It should have been a hard or harder DC, but I rolled great for the secret, so he got a good but basic still idea of how well their attacks were working (mostly confirming what they were seeing).

Overall, I’m happy with how PF2 runs at the table. The more I run it, the better it flows. There is a bit of an initial learning curve, and making a character is not as fast as other systems, but it goes smoothly at the table. I really like the way the action economy simplifies decision-making. If you have an action, you can do something with it. There just aren’t many exceptions or special cases.

Next session, it sounds like the players want to go into the dragon shrine, even though it has been taken over by gray oozes and giant geckos. That should let us do some dungeon crawling, and it should challenge me with making an interesting dungeon out of a frankly strange pairing of creatures (in spite of gray oozes having a 6% chance of coming up on my random encounter table, I rolled them something like five times today).
 
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