In particular, balancing multiple overlapping encounters has needed to be eyeballed in, well, every game, and I'm not even referring to just D&D derivatives. I'm not convinced its actually possible to do encounter guidelines that won't require that, but that's no reason to not have ones that work in more encapsulated encounters.
This is the AP we flamed out on. Too many sever/extreme encounters and the PCs felt largely ineffective. To bring it back to the topic we also had issues with the between encounters mini game with encounter powers and healing.
It could be just in my limited experience and with people I've talked to about the system (in PFS and other online games). It could also be confirmation bias that makes it seem more common to me than it actually is.
It could be also that there isn't a lot of discussion about it. I don't think a lot of GMs like to admit they've had TPKs. Or at least I don't, and I do it primarily from a place of anonymity.
Based on my experiences with the Paizo boards, people aren't shy about their TPKs and body counts. The various threads on the APs used to have obituary topics where people posted the stories of how PCs met their grisly ends. Did that fall out of vogue?
I would argue that there's nothing a player can really do to mitigate this. You can spend an action to raise a shield to boost your AC. You can attempt to demoralize an opponent (on a single turn only - you can't use it more than once an encounter). You're looking at a handful of ways to increase your AC or lower your opponent's attack bonus. These are not sufficient when you are normally fighting opponents above you in level, which is the standard in Paizo's encounter design.
First: check out this chart of an AP modules breakdown of monsters by level (specifically Abomination Vaults part 2: Hands of the Devil).
LEVEL
NUMBER
PERCENT
SUM
-4
7
8%
8%
-3
14
16%
24%
-2
16
18%
42%
-1
11
12%
54%
0
17
19%
73%
+1
7
8%
81%
+2
14
16%
97%
+3
3
3%
100%
As you can see only 27% of monsters in this module are a higher level than the players (and this is deceptive because some higher level monsters will try to talk or say go away instead of fighting).
Second: you are missing that tactics and strategy will mitigate a huge amount of damage. Let's give an example (from The Slithering):
The party is level 6 and consists of:
DK: A greatsword wielding magus in heavy armor
LA: A fighter with a guisarme and heavy armor
AR: A flurry ranger
HE: A fire elemental sorcerer specialized in blasting
They are currently at the entrance of a jungle temple in which they suspect an evil cult has taken over:
“This courtyard is circular with a 15' radius. It has an imposing wooden double door at the western end. Each side of the double door bears an enormous carving of a six-fingered hand with long, curved talons. Mosaics on the walls show a horrifying humanoid with saurian and simian features, long sharp horns, and six-fingered clawed hands devouring a variety of creatures. Narrow alcoves to the north and south lead to smaller doors, and the north door is slightly ajar.”
The characters walk forward to investigate... and trigger a trap! There is a loud clank and six concealed metal talons in the wall swing out, striking everyone in the room:
→ DK (18+22) gets crit for 6 points
→ LA (6+22) gets hit for 12 points
→ AR (2+22 hits for 3, 5+22 hits for 4, 8+22 hits for 6) for a total of 13 points.
→ HE (9+22) gets crit for 20 points.
Ouch. Everyone hears noises coming from the north. The trap is audibly reseting with a series of clunks and whirs from the wall. The PCs have a single minute to react. What do they do?
HE is going to heal, LA is going to rush to the north door and kick it open, AR is going to be on overwatch, and DK is going to follow LA.
HE: Casts a three action heal (level 2) and heals everyone for 12 damage.
LA: Kicks open the door and combat is initiated as there are two dinosaurs, each 5 foot tall and perched on birdlike legs that end in massive sickle like talons, immediately behind the door. Behind them is a dinosaur-like humanoid wielding a long spear and covered in what looks like trophies from many animals... and people.
INITIATIVE
DK 29
AR 28
AH 21
HE 20
LA 16
D1 15
D2 14
ROUND 1
DK: strides into the room and spellstrikes (Produce Flame) the first dinosaur.
→ AH: Attack of Opportunity on the spellstrike (36 crits) for 34 damage and the spellstrike is disrupted.
AR the line of fire on the humanoid dinosaur (the only opponent he can see) is partly blocked by LA and DK. He declares AH as his prey and fires three shots (17, 14, 20) and misses every shot.
AH Is going to start by casting fear (3rd) at LA and DK (the only two within range and that it can see).
→ DK: fails his will save (18) and is frightened 2
→ LA: fails his will save (21) but is only frightened 1 (thanks to Bravery) AH then attacks DK with using its long spear (Nat 20. crits) for 36 damage.
HE: Is going to stride so he can see into the room. Then he uses a two action heal (level 3) on DK, restoring 33 damage.
LA: Is going to use knockdown on D1 (29 hits for 9 damage, 17 fails to knockdown). He then strikes again (23 hits) for 14 damage. He is no longer frightened.
D1: Attacks DK 3 times. Jaws (14 misses) then both claws (19+7 hits and nat 20 crits) for a total of 14 damage, DK is also bleeding.
D2: Attacks DK 3 times. Jaws (30 hits) then both claws (25 hits and 20 hits). DK takes a total of 27 damage. He is koed, falls prone, and drops his sword.
ROUND 2
AR: Is going to shoot four times at AH (4+15, 17+12, Nat 1, 14+9) hits once for 8 damage.
AH: Steps up to DK (who is still frightened 2) and casts deathknell (13 Fails). DK dies. AH is buffed. HE: Is going to three action cast a scorching ray (level 3) against the two dinosaurs and AH. D1 6+12 misses, D2 10+12 hits for 20 damage, 17+12 hits for 15 damage (it resists fire).
LA: Is going to attack D1 (36 crits) for 32 damage, which drops it. He is going to attack twice (27 hits for 20 damage, 24 hits for 14 damage) which is enough to drop it as well.
ROUND 3
AR: Is going to shoot four times at AH (31, 20, 17, 14) hits once for 8 damage.
AH: Is going to strike LA three times (34 crits for 42 damage; 31 hits for 18 damage; 25 hits for 21 damage). That's 81 damage total.
HE: Is going to heal LA (2 actions, 3 rd level) for 35 points of damage.
LA: Is going to respond in kind: (Nat 1, 19, 17) and misses every attack.
ROUND 4
AR: Shoots (34, 26, 17, Nat 20). He hits once and crits once for 22 damage.
AH: Is going to strike LA three times (33 hit, 24 hit, 13) for 20 and 23 damage. This drops LA. He falls prone and drops his lance.
HE: Is going to 2 action heal (3rd level) LA for 39 points of damage.
ROUND 5
AR: Shoots (29, 20, 11, 21). He hits once for 7 damage.
LA: Is going to stand up.
→ AH: attack of opportunity (Nat 20, crits) for deals 46 damage. LA is dying 3.
AH: Steps up. Uses deathknell (7+10). LA Dies. AH is buffed.
HE: Realizes the fight is lost. Yells run and uses three actions to move away.
ROUND 6
AR: Uses three actions to move away. Fight changes to chase through the jungle.
Instead of walking into the room, they set up positions by the door while the AR stealthy searches the room for traps, which he spots the trap with a 28. AR then creeps around to get a peak through the door (33 stealth) and gets a look at the two dinosaurs and the fiend training. He designates the fiend as his prey then recalls knowledge (25, 26, then fails with a 22) and learns that it is a type of Fiend known as an ahvothian and that is weak to cold and resistant to fire. He sneaks back and informs the others and they make a plan. DK is going to use invisibility to hide on one side of the door, AL is going to hide on the other. Ranger is going to set a trap in front of the door, place bait just past the trap, and then make a sound to lure the creatures out. Everyone gets into position (36 group stealth!). The trap is set and the ranger makes a dying animal sound.
INITIATIVE
AR 32
DK 30
LA 28
AH 21
D1 27
D2 14
HE 14
ROUND 1
AR delays
DK delays
LA delays
AH delays
D1 goes to check out the noise. It goes to the door, opens it, sees the bait and steps through the doorway and onto the trap (29 vs the trap) but it is unaffected. It has no actions left to look around.
LA reenters initiative. He strikes (35 crits for 38 damage). He strikes again (Nat 20 for 42 damage) and demolishes it. He attempts to hide again (16 fails).
AH reenters initiative. He strides once to get into the room through the doorway.
→ LA gets an opportunity attack as he leaves the doorway (27 hits for only 11 damage).
AH attacks LA twice (28 hits for 14 damage, and 31 hits for 16 damage) striking for 30 total damage.
DK reenters initiative. He spellstrikes with ray of frost (32 hits for 21 slashing and 25 cold) for a total of 46 (AH has taken 57 damage total). He then uses arcane cascade stance (cold).
AR reenters initiative. He shoots 4 times (26 hits for 12 damage, 23 misses, 20 miss, 26 hits for 12 damage). That’s a total of 24 damage (AH has taken 81 damage total).
D2 Strides up to DK (can’t quite get into a flank but it will be able to with darting attack).
→ DK takes an attack of opportunity (32 crits for 52 damage) killing it in one blow.
HE casts ray of frost at AH (18 misses).
ROUND 2
LA is going use Knockdown on AH (21 misses). Then strikes (Nat 20) and does 30 damage (AH has taken 111 damage total).
AH is going to step out of the flank, then attack DK twice (30 hits, 21 misses) for 18 damage.
DK gains 3 temp hp. DK is going to cast shield, thunderous strike (17+15 hits for 28 of fort save. Deals 7 slashing, 2 sonic, 11 cold) then strike (7+10 misses). For a total of 20 damage (AH has taken 131 damage total).
AR shoots 4 times (20 miss, 17 miss, 20 miss, 25 hits for 8 damage, 19 miss) for a total of 8 damage. AH has taken (139 damage total).
HE uses electric arc (15+12 saves) zapping it for 6 damage (145 damage total).
ROUND 3
LA is going to step and use knockdown (Nat 20 for 30 damage). And the fight is over as AH goes down.
So comparing these two scenarios, different tactics turned a partial TPK into a fairly cost less victory (DK uses an invisibility spell, DK took 18 points of damage, LA took 30 points of damage). PF2e is very much a game that relies on exploration mode to function and this is what I love about PF2e and why I think it works for me. The rules create opportunities for meaningful decisions (that is decisions where there are consequences) outside of combat. However, any game in which the players are allowed to make meaningful decisions allows the possibility of the wrong decisions being made. We see that in the example I posted above.
A major problem I see with people on this board trying to run the game is that they/their players don’t want out of combat decisions to affect combat difficult (that is they are very Combat as Sport) and so they don’t let it – every fight becomes a kick in the door and fight whats in the room then reset for the next room. But that makes the game much deadlier and it invalidates a lot of the features of the game system. Essentially the game is seeing the players repeatedly make the wrong decisions (kicking in doors without thought) and punishing them for it.
This brings me to immersion. If there was a 50% chance that kicking in a door would lead to your death and a 1% chance that acting smart would lead to your death what would you do? Immersion, IMHO, is placing yourself in the shoes of your character and acting like they would given the information that they know. The PF2e world is dangerous, kicking in doors and faffing around will quickly get you killed. Thus, out of combat decision making becomes very important. For example: a party is exploring an orc mine, they have taken the entrance and left their retainers to defend it. They then went deeper in and encountered a patrol of orc guards. Damage was inflicted on both sides, but the orcs retreated, taking a single loss. Two of the PCs are wounded. Now the PCs have a tough choice since they have to balance recovery with what the orcs might do. For example, they could:
A) Heal up without using resources
B) Heal up using resources (two PCs would still be wounded) then used the time saved to do something else.
C) Fortify the room they are in
D) Pursue the orcs
F) Retreat to a safe place and then heal up
E) Split up to do multiple things
G) Call their retainers up to this room
H) Something not on this list
Let's say they choose to do A and recover some of their missing HP after a ten minute turn with treat wounds (also removes the wounded condition). Then they hear orcish drums beating further in the dungeon... and they are rapidly getting closer. They have a minute to react, what do they do?
A) Heal the remaining HP, with resources and try to fight the orcs
B) Retreat to a reinforced position
C) Desperately attempt to fortify the room
D) Get into a tactically advantageous position to try and hold of the orc vanguard
E) Hide and let the orcs pass them
F) Sit there and wait for the orcs to attack them
G) Go out and attack the orcs
H) Something not on this list
Lets say they choose D and fight a couple rounds at the door to the room, dropping a couple orcs. Then the front line is shoved out of position and orcs start flooding into the room, the badly hurt PCs then retreat covered by the spells from the wizard. They get back to the previously fortified room where their retainers have been waiting, they have a minute before the orcs catch up. What do they do?
A) Heal as best they can and use the fortifications to try and hold, sending away their retainers to safety
B) Heal as best they can, but keep the retainers present to provide additional healing and support, to try and hold longer at risk to the retainers
C) Convince the retainers to fight the orcs off in order to give them time to heal (or retreat)
D) Order a retreat to the surface
E) Order a retreat to the surface leaving a couple of characters as a rear-guard to try and delay the orcs
F) Something else not on this list
Lets say they choose B. After a tense fight, they are forced to retreat out of the dungeon and a chase ensues. They escape but a PC and many retainers are lost. The remaining retainers are quite mad at the PCs and are threatening to leave. What do the PCs do?
And the chain continues. Each decision has consequences and the chain of decisions and consequences creates an engaging game. Tension is created because players don't have perfect information about the consequences of the decisions they make: they have to put themselves in the characters shoes and use skill and judgment in making decisions. And if they make the wrong decisions things could go disastrously. This, IMHO, is what creates immersion: imaging yourself in a scenario and thinking, what would I do if I was there and had realistic motivations (like NOT DYING)? What steps would I take? Would the steps I like to take put me in conflict with another characters steps to achieve their motivation?
This is of course the Combat as War philosophy as opposed to the Combat as Sport philosophy. And it’s okay to like Combat as Sport (though I personally feel like it turns the experience into an overly complicated board game, I understand that different people like different things). What I am saying is that PF2e is NOT Combat as Sport by default (see the above example for instance, or a zillion of my previous posts in various threads). Trying to run it as a hp attrition based series of combats where no decisions are made between them and only the 8th combat in a day has any chance of hurting the PCs will not work simply because of how the system is designed. You could of course change it to try and run as a Combat as Sport game (adding auto-healing between encounters as an example), but why not just run a system that plays that way by default such as 4E?
@!DWolf I appreciate the lengthy post and all the math. You put a lot of time and effort into informing us.
My problem is that the second scenario you presented must be considered the ideal circumstance to deal with a common encounter in PF2. It requires - to my mind - either god-like system mastery, knowledge of the adventure, or supernatural good luck. To have a character get a great Stealth check, be able to roll a tremendous Recall Knowledge check about the exact type of creature (which I think is actually not following RAW about what information a GM gives away about creatures' weaknesses, etc), be able to view the creatures without giving away position by light sources/etc, to be able to formulate an entire party-strategy completely quietly to not give away position, etc.
You are talking about absolute ideal circumstances. In an average, run-of-the-mill encounter, like what happens in nearly every room in Abomination Vaults, this would seem both exhausting and improbable.
As you can see only 27% of monsters in this module are a higher level than the players (and this is deceptive because some higher level monsters will try to talk or say go away instead of fighting).
I've read and prepped Abomination Vaults. The "try to talk" is usually some empty excuse for role-playing. "Sacrifice yourself to be eaten by the ghouls or prepare to die!" is legitimately presented as a choice players can choose to make.
The copy and paste phrase "they fight to the death" came up so much I lost count. The idea that there is meaningful roleplaying opportunities in that AP is grossly overestimated.
But like I said, Retreater, how do you explain our group's success?
Yeah, we're a little better off than the routine characters because we're hybrids, but we're also playing in AoA with its overtuned elements, and while being hybrids ups your options, it doesn't terribly up your overall power.
Sometimes we're very much on our game and everyone acts like a well oiled machine. And sometimes I'm distracted and forget to use some of my Champion tricks and don't pay attention to the overall battle, sometimes my wife gets impatient and just has her character do whatever she feels like at the moment (which may well be whatever irritation has directed her to), sometimes our investigator/witch player has to just show off, and sometimes the oracle/sorcerer's player has to just stay back away from things because she might have a faint chance of getting hurt and therefor doesn't get to apply her sorcerous powers or healing effectively.
But we still get through. If you absolutely, positively have to being right on top of everything, how do we manage?
Since I don't know about your group, I guess I can't answer that.
I don't know enough about the hybrid rules to know if that's an impact.
Are you at the suggested levels for the adventure (or several higher)? [We still got TPKs at +1 over the level.]
Are you over-equipped with gear? [We had standard wealth and got TPKed regularly.]
Do you have more than 4 characters? [We had 5 characters and got killed regularly.]
Is your GM "taking it easy" on you? Are they taking all 3 actions for the enemies? Do the monsters follow any course of logic (investigating disturbances, patrolling, reinforcing), or do they just wait in rooms to be encountered and killed?
Since I don't know about your group, I guess I can't answer that.
I don't know enough about the hybrid rules to know if that's an impact.
Are you at the suggested levels for the adventure (or several higher)? [We still got TPKs at +1 over the level.]
Are you over-equipped with gear? [We had standard wealth and got TPKed regularly.]
Do you have more than 4 characters? [We had 5 characters and got killed regularly.]
Is your GM "taking it easy" on you? Are they taking all 3 actions for the enemies? Do the monsters follow any course of logic (investigating disturbances, patrolling, reinforcing), or do they just wait in rooms to be encountered and killed?
I have no clue how you are getting this stuff. I fudge rolls less than I do in 5E, have 4 players and are definitely not playing optimized and they can still handle a +1 encounter without dying. I feel like there is something going on with your experience, but I have no clue where it starts or what it is. If this were the case more broadly, you'd definitely hear about it. It'd almost be impossible for you not to.
Its absolutely an impact--that's why it was done given AoA--but since we played a short campaign (up to L8) with non-hybrids previously, I'm fairly comfortable saying its not overwhelming. Partly, because in practice, even if you combine the best traits of two classes, three actions is still three actions, and on rounds I'm doing my bard spells I'm not doing my champions stuff (and there are elements of my bard I never use because there just isn't time).
At the very start of the campaign we were level 2 instead of one, but we didn't level to three until the point where it indicated we were supposed to, so that hasn't mattered for about 12 levels now.
Not really. We have a lot of spare magic weapons (because AoA drops them like popcorn so transferring runes hasn't been a problem) but we're not exactly packing anything above level, and some stuff has lagged appreciably because we didn't find what we need (armor being notorious here) and you spend a lot of time in that AP kind of far away from places you're going to be able to reliably even buy things at your level. I've had fair periods where I felt, if anything, a bit underequipped (and eyeballing it, that seems true of how it would count using the money-per-level table)
Is your GM "taking it easy" on you? Are they taking all 3 actions for the enemies? Do the monsters follow any course of logic (investigating disturbances, patrolling, reinforcing), or do they just wait in rooms to be encountered and killed?
The first, there's no sign of. The second--honestly, without knowing more of the guts of the specifics of the AP, how could I tell? On the occasions where this seems relevant, it certainly didn't seem so.
