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Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2e: is it RAW or RAI to always take 10 minutes and heal between encounters?

Maybe the game language oriented and uniform presentation of powers, plus the uniform recovery and acquisition rate of powers.

4E basically pulled back the curtain too much for its era. I feel like if it were released 5-6 years later, it'd be much better accepted... then again, maybe it wouldn't be if it hadn't come first.
 

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Maybe the game language oriented and uniform presentation of powers, plus the uniform recovery and acquisition rate of powers.

I don't think so. One of the things I'm usually not super-enthused about is exception-based design, and many of the games I've used extensively over the years were effect-based.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
As others have said, in practice PF2e has moved away from hit point attrition on a strategic level being relevant as a default. I also do agree that its perhaps a bit obscured, but its too obvious once you go down the rabbit-hole of looking at how Medicine works for it to be reasonably viewed any other way.
A better game would have told you up front, though.
 

Retreater

Legend
A better game would have told you up front, though.
That would've turned off their existing core audience of 3.x/PF players from the start. Which I think is sort of what has happened anyway, IME. But at least they got some of them to try the system before tossing it aside in favor of PF1 or 5e.
 


JThursby

Explorer
What is the best way to ensure that narratively, it makes sense that the PCs have the ten minutes to brace themselves between fights?

As a PF2e GM, I have the players rooting thought and looting any enemies take about ten minutes to search, secure and distribute treasure and items. That gives everyone else time to do something else, like repair, refocus or treat wounds. Just have the players look through the list of exploration activities and pick one, or have them make up their own if they have something particular in mind: Activities - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database
 

CapnZapp

Legend
The Stamina rules don’t seem as bad as the usual wounds/vitality system. They (more or less) split your hit points in half, and that’s it. There’s no extra punishment for taking a critical hit. It’s just a way to change the pacing of recovery. Resolve pools are optional, so groups can decide whether or not they want attrition in their games.
Yes.

It's a remarkably long-winded and clunky way of saying "half is hp and half is sp" though.

I recommend to simply junk all them rules and just say half is hp and half is sp which replenish automatically after a rest.

Paizo always uses a hundred words when just five would suffice, though.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Those are interesting in limiting the short-term, but again I'm more about long-term attrition. With those, you might have trouble with a running fight because you won't be easily able to heal up to full, but a day of downtime and you'll be just like new. I like the idea of having to spend a week or two recovering. I feel like 5E encouraged my players go just break-neck around the place, even with "gritty" healing on.

In this case, I like having multiple options to heal. But I also want some limiting factor so that you don't just recover in a single day. Looking over the mechanic, Strain seems like a fantastic way of managing that: typically speaking a PF2 party isn't for lack of healing (especially with Fonts for Clerics), but I want them to have to manage that in some way. Having so much means that long-term healing isn't really something that happens... unless you put in a limit. Strain... that looks like it could do it.

The only situation I'd say that you might be able to heal from without Strain is from 0 hitpoints (which is fine, since the Wounded condition means you're not going to get much out of that edge case). In fact, you could probably do something about having levels of Wounded limiting how much strain you can recover until the condition is gone. Lot of potential in adding in that limit, just like Healing Surges were meant to do in 4E.
Conditions fill that role/need (attrition).

Instead of being asked to keep on adventuring down some hit points, you're asked to keep on adventuring while Clumsy or Drained or the like.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Talking to my wife last night, we were discussing about how 4e might actually be the superior version of PF2 (except being out of print and not being on VTT). That's probably a topic for another thread, but something I'm interested in talking about.
I didn't like 4E and the parts of PF2 I like the most, are the parts of PF2 that is more like 3/5E than 4E.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I can see the argument, but I think in a number of areas 4e just felt A Bridge Too Far for me, where PF2e stays on the right side of that, but that can't be but a subjective feeling.
I agree that in most aspects PF2 stays on the right side (even though it is laden down with an extreme amount of ultimately meaningless detail) where 4E did not.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I think this is where a lot of my trouble with PF2 comes from. Its one foot in 3E design and another foot in 4E design. The presentation manages to seem familiar to 3E style and feel, but it comes out 4E in the wash. Thats likely a goldilocks area for some folks.
The presentation is very much like 4E. The book is a catalog more than a book of recipes (rules). I would add "imho" except I don't see how that's controversial - just open any page, and you're likely met with a list. Everything except the skeleton of a class is found in the powers. And so on. Just like 4E.

However, in practical play the game runs more like 3/5E than 4E which in the end is the deciding factor.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
The beginner's box is as close as you'll likely get. 5E is the streamlined D&D and Pathfinder's way to differentiate is to be the more complex D&D in the market. What will really be interesting is to see how level up shakes things up? It might give folks that 5E feel with the crunch they want from PF2 without PF2s design choices.
If LU turns out good, I am going to wish it retroactively came out 3-5 years ago
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I played in a reasonably long 4e campaign, and there were things I both liked and even more I respected about the design.

But somehow the overall effect left a bad taste in my mouth, and I write it off to the degree of stylization. I don't think I can post at anything in particular or specific though, it was just the overall feeling.
In my case it was the realization the tactical nuance of 4E combat made us find playing it fast and loose was uninteresting... but playing it seriously with total focus was far too time-consuming, leaving no time for roleplay.

4E definitely is not a board game. But you can have fun like with a board game with it's tactical grid-based combat. But you can't combine that fun with the fun of a roleplaying session where combat is just part of the experience.

There just isn't time for both.

In the end we just stopped. The only way to play it like a proper ttrpg was to sacrifice the "quality of our moves" during combat, and doing that is un-fun.
 


CapnZapp

Legend
I feel healing (and crafting) are the fly's in the ointment for PF2E (stealth took me a while to get used to, but now I have I think it works). Luckily both systems I find are fairly easily house ruled and neither have impacted on our enjoyment of the game.
Like a few others have mentioned I just tend to allow the group to fully heal between encounters unless circumstances would prevent it
You will find me pointing out plenty flies in the ointment if you peruse the threads I have started in this thread.

Healing and crafting are absolutely two such topics!

Happy reading ;)
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I do agree that it's fairly easy to houserule these to get to wherever you want to be for a game.
I believe it is a mistake to think it is easy at all.

At least if you care about disturbing the myriad of character options that depend on your house rules in various ways.

I would instead say Pathfinder 2 is actively hostile to house rules, since you WILL encounter a feat or other option that your house rule has impacted in unintentional ways...

Sure you can simply say something and expect your players to cope.

But that's not the same as being able to fully integrate your house rule in the rules.

Paizo is spewing out a mind boggling amount of special little powers and they give zero amount of thought to how you might want to customize it all yourself. This is definitely a game where you are expected to go with the program.
 
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Conditions fill that role/need (attrition).

Instead of being asked to keep on adventuring down some hit points, you're asked to keep on adventuring while Clumsy or Drained or the like.

No no no. You're mistaking my point. I'm not talking about dungeon attrition, but something more long-term. You're right that conditions can totally do that, but that's short-term stuff like Vitality. I'm not as interested in that stuff, to be honest.

What I'm talking about is stuff that would keep players in place and resting, giving them a reason to actually have downtime when they might not necessarily want to. Like, real healing time. Strain in Worlds Without Number nails exactly what I'm talking about: it puts a limit on healing by making it so that you get a pool of healing equal to your Constitution, and that it recovers only once a day (potentially). To me, that's the attrition I'm looking for: you can run into some real s**** and you're unlikely to use all your heals in a single day. However, it might get dicey to continue pushing too hard. It creates a limit on both medicine and stuff like Cure Wounds spam and forces the party to actually recuperate.

Does that clear up what I'm talking about a bit?
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
I believe it is a mistake to think it is easy at all.

At least if you care about disturbing the myriad of character options that depend on your house rules in various ways.

I would instead say Pathfinder 2 is actively hostile to house rules, since you WILL encounter a feat or other option that your house rule has impacted in unintentional ways...

Sure you can simply say something and expect your players to cope.

But that's not the same as being able to fully integrate your house rule in the rules.

Paizo is spewing out a mind boggling amount of special little powers and they give zero amount of thought to how you might want to customize it all yourself. This is definitely a game where you are expected to go with the program.
If one is already implementing house rules, then the occasional conflict with options (particularly new ones) doesn’t seem like it should be a problem in practice. Just change the conflicting option or ban it. That’s how things typically go once one starts making substantive changes to a game. That strikes me less as a problem and more working as intended.
 

Nilbog

Snotling Herder
I believe it is a mistake to think it is easy at all.

At least if you care about disturbing the myriad of character options that depend on your house rules in various ways.

I would instead say Pathfinder 2 is actively hostile to house rules, since you WILL encounter a feat or other option that your house rule has impacted in unintentional ways...

Sure you can simply say something and expect your players to cope.

But that's not the same as being able to fully integrate your house rule in the rules.

Paizo is spewing out a mind boggling amount of special little powers and they give zero amount of thought to how you might want to customize it all yourself. This is definitely a game where you are expected to go with the program.

Yep I get that you have a passionate dislike for the game. Your posts almost turned me off playing it, I'm glad I stuck with the courage of my convictions and kept at it, as despite a few things I don't like, and a couple of little wrinkles I'm a bit meh about, I'm enjoying DM'ing it more than I have any system in the past 30 years of gaming.

Just shows that one persons trash is another's treasure eh?
 

JmanTheDM

Explorer
I've seen a lot of references to the game being designed around HP being only, say, a resource in fights, not between fights; [...snip...] Essentially, that characters should pretty much always take between 10 and 30 minutes to heal up [...snip...]. And I already knew that the game is pretty different from 5e [snip]. I have not found an actual page, paragraph or reference to the text of the core rulebooks that explain this. Where is it written in the CRB or Gamemastry Guide that it is generally expected that the players be full or close to full HP between encounters?
sorry about the heavy edits. I hope I maintained the intent of your question. Jason Bulmahn in one of his Gencon presentations - I think it was his "ask paizo anything" panel, found on Youtube. in it, he was asked why he creates such hard adventures. laughter ensues, evil laughter.. but in it he does mention that if you come at PF2 with a PF1 mindset, you will run into trouble. one concrete example he gives is in the expected healing between encounters. he was explicit in saying the system expects full healing between encounters. So, I'd say this is fully Rules as Intended, but maybe not as clearly expressed as need be.

Cheers,
J.
 

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