Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2E or Pathfinder 1E?

Retreater

Legend
The thing is that my group can appreciate some of the crunchier aspects of gaming - especially in tactical play and character creation. PF2 seemed like it was going to support this, but they held on to too many of the "sacred cows" of PF1 (and 3.x editions) and had added a few needlessly convoluted subsystems (like the dying mechanic). Additionally, the playtest was just so bad that my groups are hesitant to try it again (after having bad experiences at home with the Doomsday Dawn as well as PFS events at Origins and GenCon.)
So we are enjoying the balance and tactics of 4E, and my "beginner games" are with 5E.
 

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Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
This is one of the areas I found least satisfying with 5e. Our group played through Curse of Strahd and I found no joy at all from character creation or levelling up. I can totally understand how others may prefer this simplicity, but to me, it was pretty boring. We haven't played 5e since. It's just not for me. I feel it removes an enjoyable component of the game - crafting and personalising your character.

I have 2 comments about this:

First, the leveling up in PF is not always that "creative" because effective builds have to be planned several levels in advance - your leveling up from 6 to 7 may have been planned at level 1.

Second, I've seen players who are more concerned about creating characters than playing the game! For them, the game is a way to test/prove their characters, and it can lead to not great table behavior. This doesn't mean that enjoying character build is always bad, but it's not always good either. Furthermore, I've enjoyed building 5e characters - there are a fair number of potions, and almost all of them are valid.
 

First, the leveling up in PF is not always that "creative" because effective builds have to be planned several levels in advance - your leveling up from 6 to 7 may have been planned at level 1.
I really wish there was a way for characters to develop naturally over the course of play, without also ending up severely underpowered next to a character that was planned in advance.

Is anyone out there working on a game that has a lot of character options, where all options are reasonably balanced?
 

Kurviak

Explorer
I really wish there was a way for characters to develop naturally over the course of play, without also ending up severely underpowered next to a character that was planned in advance.

Is anyone out there working on a game that has a lot of character options, where all options are reasonably balanced?

I think that’s what paizo is trying to do with pf2, but we won’t know if they succeed until it’s published. The play test is NOT pf2. At least they added free re-training as standard downtime rule
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
I really wish there was a way for characters to develop naturally over the course of play, without also ending up severely underpowered next to a character that was planned in advance.

Is anyone out there working on a game that has a lot of character options, where all options are reasonably balanced?

You can *sort* of do that in 5e? The options are well balanced... but there aren't a lot of them, and you don't have a lot of choice points. Your choices are limited to ASI/feats, early choices about what subclass you take, "do I multi-class", what spell to get/memories, a few powers you have choices (invocations, maneuvres etc). But you can design a character at level 1 and sort of be on auto-pilot. (Vs PF where you chart this perilous, complex course for ever freaking level until 20).

So 5e is kinda what you are looking for, but it's not great.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I agree that 5e at high level could easily support high, epic fantasy (with a few bugs as you say). However, I don't think that it is a good system for low fantasy - warhammer 2nd ed would be much better for that, as an example.
Sure.

That's not what we're talking about here, though. Have a nice day.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I imagine the final product actually ships with more choices which means more character building/away-from-table time in their game.
To be honest I wouldn't hold my breath.

What I've seen from the playtest gives me a strong feeling Paizo have learned nothing from 5E's success.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Combat is just about the only area where a 5E character scales reasonably well, but they're still complete chumps when it comes to climbing a wall or swimming any significant distance. The difference between a level 1 fighter and a level 20 fighter is only +7, which still pales in comparison to the randomness of the d20. That doesn't allow for a good sandbox, where high-level characters get to interact with low-level characters and utterly dominate them due to their inherent superiority. The lies of a powerful sorcerer will still be seen through frequently enough by anyone listening to them, because the fundamental game mechanics are designed to support low-level chumps being nearly as competent as high-level PCs in any area that doesn't involve HP damage.

That's not a good sandbox, if your stats are meaningless because the die is too volatile. D&D 5E is mechanically incapable of supporting a good sandbox, and attempting such a thing will inevitably lead to disappointment. (Which would be forgivable, if the game was only designed to support combat, except combat is also meaningless in 5E.)
To be entirely frank, I don't think your concern is a concern for a significant number of gamers.

A high level 5E character is still so phenomenally ahead of a low-level character that is feels mostly like a theoretical concern (for most gamers).

Sure a low-level character might pull off a DC 20 skill test.

But if the price of failure is falling into 12d6 lava or the Mouth of The Giant Man-Trap there is no real issue in practice since the high-level character will take some damage, kill off anything that moves, and then simply move on. While the low-level character is dead, dead, dead.

I would argue 5E is much better than the editions of old precisely because you can't just arbitrarily increase DCs to present heroes with the same old challenges, just with "ridiculous difficulty".

That is - I submit the very idea of DC 45 climb checks is borked from the start. The whole point is that you're not supposed to be climbing walls (except automatically, no check required, and in fact without mentioning it at all) no more once you're a high-level hero!

tl;dr: the fact I can (and do) run a complete campaign with only three* DCs** is a huge benefit for 5E. It might seem like a trivial small issue, but it really is very very good! :)


Z

*) obviously excepting fixed DCs such as a monster's spell save DC
**) I'm using DC 12, DC 15 and DC 20. The reason for not using DC 10 is that is means any and all characters without an actual penalty will auto-succeed by "taking 10" (using their passive score). That is, a "secret door" with a DC 10 to find (don't laugh, I've seen it in official modules) is not a secret door at all, since even a Commoner will find it ten times out of ten!

Make it DC 11 or DC 12, however, and you have a whole new story: you need to actively roll to find it (unless of course you're actively good at what you do i.e. you have a positive modifier), which means you need to state you're looking etc, you might fail and all sorts of interesting things might happen. Basically, when you go from DC 10 to DC 11 the system starts to work again.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Sure.

That's not what we're talking about here, though. Have a nice day.

But YOU are the one that brought it up!

I am convinced 5e is capable of all of the kinds of fantasy people want to play, which is all that matters.

That's what you said! You said *all the kinds*. You extended the topic, I thought that wasn't quite right, and I commented.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Combat is just about the only area where a 5E character scales reasonably well, but they're still complete chumps when it comes to climbing a wall or swimming any significant distance. The difference between a level 1 fighter and a level 20 fighter is only +7, which still pales in comparison to the randomness of the d20. That doesn't allow for a good sandbox, where high-level characters get to interact with low-level characters and utterly dominate them due to their inherent superiority. The lies of a powerful sorcerer will still be seen through frequently enough by anyone listening to them, because the fundamental game mechanics are designed to support low-level chumps being nearly as competent as high-level PCs in any area that doesn't involve HP damage.

Swimming and climbing aren't really the stuff of epic games are they? Nor is charming chumps. You can easily magic that away.

That's not a good sandbox, if your stats are meaningless because the die is too volatile. D&D 5E is mechanically incapable of supporting a good sandbox, and attempting such a thing will inevitably lead to disappointment. (Which would be forgivable, if the game was only designed to support combat, except combat is also meaningless in 5E.)

I'm not really sure what this has to do with a sandbox style of play. By this logic, sandbox is *only* possible at high level because at low levels your bonuses are low and the dice is more volatile.

To be entirely frank, I don't think your concern is a concern for a significant number of gamers.

A high level 5E character is still so phenomenally ahead of a low-level character that is feels mostly like a theoretical concern (for most gamers).

Sure a low-level character might pull off a DC 20 skill test.

But if the price of failure is falling into 12d6 lava or the Mouth of The Giant Man-Trap there is no real issue in practice since the high-level character will take some damage, kill off anything that moves, and then simply move on. While the low-level character is dead, dead, dead.
I concur.

I would argue 5E is much better than the editions of old precisely because you can't just arbitrarily increase DCs to present heroes with the same old challenges, just with "ridiculous difficulty".

That is - I submit the very idea of DC 45 climb checks is borked from the start. The whole point is that you're not supposed to be climbing walls (except automatically, no check required, and in fact without mentioning it at all) no more once you're a high-level hero!

tl;dr: the fact I can (and do) run a complete campaign with only three* DCs** is a huge benefit for 5E. It might seem like a trivial small issue, but it really is very very good! :)

YES. Epic things are epic because they are epic, not because they are DC 45. Besides, in 5e you just scale back the numbers anyway. And if a GM wants an "epic hard" DC, its' DC 30. done. I don't even have to think about it.

If the DCs scale up with the level of the characters... why bother scaling the DCs?
 
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