Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2E or Pathfinder 1E?

Retreater

Legend
Which D&D are you talking about?

Early D&D (or OD&D) if you wanted a character to sneak past a guard it was DM's choice. In many games that meant a Dexterity check.

If the character was a thief, they got that dexterity check ON TOP of their other checks.

Just because one wasn't a thief did not mean that they could not actually use their ability scores to try to sneak past, steal, climb up a cliff with a rope, or multiple other items.

It was a later iteration that caused players to think this way (as it did not really notate this in 1e so some really weird people had a rule that a fighter could not walk quietly and could not climb things and other such crazy notions).

This got further reinforced with 2e...

But luckily nothing in the rules PREVENTED ability score checks (and prior to Non-weapon proficiencies ability score checks were actually encouraged, similar to how 5e handles many of it's skill systems, but less structured).

However, 3e I think sort of made this an even worse exaggeration of skills and such and it only started to change with 4e (which handled things similar to 5e but all around with a +5 to skills in general (instead of the +2 to +6 proficiency spread).

Your idea doesn't really hold water with the early thief class and how it was handled...though it probably holds water with LATER AD&D 2e and especially 3e.

As far as making the Thief a marksman...the crazy thing that people expect now is that some untrained lackey is going to have the same ability as a trained warrior. That a soldier is going to be just as proficient at hitting a mark as a guy that spends his days buried in a book, or a burglar who spends his time sneaking around.

Having recently spent time with AD&D 2nd Ed and Labyrinth Lord made me realize just how pointless the thief class was. Any character using their ability score to do anything would be more successful than a low level thief. A wizard with a 7 Str is more likely to climb. A cleric with a 9 Dex is more likely to hide in shadows or move silently.
But if a DM doesn't allow ability scores to be used, the thief has like 15% chance to scout ahead and do his job.
Even though I have fond memories of these games and they have their place in gaming history, they are poorly designed.
 

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GreyLord

Legend
Having recently spent time with AD&D 2nd Ed and Labyrinth Lord made me realize just how pointless the thief class was. Any character using their ability score to do anything would be more successful than a low level thief. A wizard with a 7 Str is more likely to climb. A cleric with a 9 Dex is more likely to hide in shadows or move silently.
But if a DM doesn't allow ability scores to be used, the thief has like 15% chance to scout ahead and do his job.
Even though I have fond memories of these games and they have their place in gaming history, they are poorly designed.

I would disagree with some of them being poorly designed (of course, that depends on how one defines designed). It's made for a playstyle that differs from the ones today.

The thief is an interesting class in that it wasn't originally planned for. Originally you had a Fighting Man, a Magic-User, and a class that combined the two (magic-user and fighting man, but maybe not as great as either) in the Cleric. You could play the entire campaign with just these three classes. A DM could figure how they climbed over a wall, snuck past the dragon, figured out where the traps were, and other things that were later relegated to a Thief. Many chose to use ability score checks.

When the thief came around, the original usage suggested was that unless under stress, the thief would automatically succeed in their Thief Skill checks (at least that's how I understand the original creator used their thief class, he's still around as well, perhaps even on these forums though I do not know his handle/name here). I don't think Gygax was as thrilled with the implementation in quite that way, so I do not think this idea was communicated in any rules of the day. He had the thief, but in some ways it was pared down tremendously from that type of usage.

If you use it as many did where the thief gets a DOUBLE CHECK, which means they can make all the ability checks as others do, but also can fall back on their thief skills, or use their thief skills but also get an ability check pertinent to them for a lesser success, it actually gives the thief a greater usage. Many who chose to do this had been using the original 3 classes with ability checks to do things already, so using a thief this way made a lot of sense.

Not everyone played it this way (why I said many...not most or all), and there were various takes and interpretations of how the rules would work.

[and if you consider that poorly designed, I suppose you could be right, but I don't think that's what you meant. For some of us, that type of design works better than the modern rules that define everything you must do in a game].

When AD&D hit the market, no wording of this was really hinted at. Those who played with the Older groups who started early only learned about these things and how this worked via word of mouth. It was further killed off by interpretations at tournaments which for some crazy reason had weird minded judges that came up with excuses as to why a Fighter might not be able to climb up a cliff, or why they couldn't hide behind a pillar (only a thief can hide behind a pillar...let's ignore common sense). AD&D was much more strict on rules and specific types of rule interpretations. As AD&D got older you no longer saw Fighters sneaking around as much or Magic-Users using their brains to solve puzzles with no combat or magic (as magic to low level Magic-users was limited). Later AD&D basically had the thief being played as you described originally and AD&D 2e continued this tradition as did 3e.

I don't consider any of those rules really bad design though. I think that's a throwaway word (and they tried to use it with 4e in reference to older editions quite a bit, I think that put a bad taste in a LOT of people's mouths in regards to that consideration) to try to promote newer editions and insult older players and their rules.

I think it is a DIFFERENT type of design that caters to different playstyles and how different groups enjoy playing. For some types of playstyles it's perfect, for others, it is not.

5e I think tried to take some of this idea (easier to homerule, less stress on being absolute rules and exact rules for everything) because it saw the strength of this type of design that was found in earlier editions.
 

Why even pick up dice if all you want is "rolling a d6, succeeding on 1 through 6"?
One of the significant limitations of d20 design is that there's no room between 95% reliability and 100% reliability, when really, that's a very interesting zone to work with. The difference between 96% and 99% is actually quite meaningful, when it comes to making important decisions. Of course, that issue is exacerbated when you deal with flat d6 or d10 systems.

In fact, that brings us back to what was trying to say previously: the ends of the die outcomes should pretty much always be open... that is, reaching a success on 17 or 18 should be considerably more difficult/expensive.
If a strong character succeeds two-thirds of the times, while a weak character succeeds one-third of the time, then in neither case are you really making an informed decision. Either way is basically a coin flip. Why bother having stats, if they don't matter, because the difference between good and bad is so small? (on a related note, who buys padded armor, if it only has a 5% chance of doing anything? Were you planning to be shot twenty times?)

And even there, it really does not apply if said game allows you to keep fighting at peak efficiency up until you lose your last hp. (If going from 12 to 8 hp means nothing, the clearly that stab did not damage you nearly as much as the stab that takes you from 3 to -1 hp)
On the contrary, the stab which takes you from 3 to -1 is exactly as damaging as the one which took you from 12 to 8. Neither injury would be sufficient to incapacitate you, on its own. Either would be sufficient, if you were already wounded down to 3. Narratively, both hits are exactly as powerful, because that's what the damage number represents.
 
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ParanoydStyle

Peace Among Worlds
I saw Pathfinder 2E's playtest for sale in a Barnes & Noble, which immediately rubbed me the wrong way--I'm a firm believer that people should not pay to playtest something, and so I have issues with the way Early Access is used. Anyway, I flipped through it and I remember that it looked really, really terrible but I don't remember exactly why. There was some major :):):):) wrong with the game design, though. Anyone want to change my mind and/or remind me why it was bad? Because I do remember vaguely looking at it once and thinking it was really, really bad.
 

Kurviak

Explorer
I saw Pathfinder 2E's playtest for sale in a Barnes & Noble, which immediately rubbed me the wrong way--I'm a firm believer that people should not pay to playtest something, and so I have issues with the way Early Access is used. Anyway, I flipped through it and I remember that it looked really, really terrible but I don't remember exactly why. There was some major :):):):) wrong with the game design, though. Anyone want to change my mind and/or remind me why it was bad? Because I do remember vaguely looking at it once and thinking it was really, really bad.

The playtest PDFs are free from day one. They published the books for the people wanting them, mostly collectors. Also the playtest isn’t the final game at all.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Remember, 5th edition didn't just introduce Concentration as a mechanic. They also ruthlessly and unsentimentally applied it to almost every spell that buffs or debuffs. This is why the impact to the 5E play experience is so pervasive.

And that was a good thing, IMO.
 

the Jester

Legend
Combat is just about the only area where a 5E character scales reasonably well, but they're still complete chumps when it comes to climbing a wall or swimming any significant distance. The difference between a level 1 fighter and a level 20 fighter is only +7, which still pales in comparison to the randomness of the d20. That doesn't allow for a good sandbox, where high-level characters get to interact with low-level characters and utterly dominate them due to their inherent superiority.

That's not what a sandbox is. It doesn't even have anything to do with sandbox play. How much badder ass a high level character is than a low level one is a completely separate issue from sandbox play.

Sandbox play is setting-based, where the creatures and challenges exist irrespective of the pcs, and where the level of the pcs doesn't (generally) affect what level the goblin chief is or how old the dragon of Ghost Mountain is. The challenges are out there, and it's up to the players to determine their risk level (and hopefully, that will effect their reward level).

D&D 5E is mechanically incapable of supporting a good sandbox, and attempting such a thing will inevitably lead to disappointment. (Which would be forgivable, if the game was only designed to support combat, except combat is also meaningless in 5E.)

I have been running a hardcore sandbox in 5e for approximately 370 sessions. I assure you that it works fine, and even allows for old-skool mixed level play.

You seem to be conflating "vast difference in power levels between low and high levels" with sandbox play. I'd posit that such a playstyle choice is only rarely associated with sandboxing, and the harder core the sandbox playstyle, the less you see such things. It might be more common than I expect, but it's absolutely not relevant to whether a campaign is a sandbox or not.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
And that was a good thing, IMO.
Sure.

I just made the point that just introducing the mechanic isn't nearly good enough, if it isn't then applied to enough spells.

Heck, if we removed Concentration from as little as nine wizard spells, one per level, that would probably suffice to remove its restrictive influence from the class entirely!
 


CapnZapp

Legend
The problem with concentration was what spells it was and wasn't applied to. Dancing lights for example but not foresight.
If you're saying that 5E's implementation of Concentration isn't perfect I agree.

But this discussion isn't about the fine-tuning of 5E. Going back to the overall issue, we were discussing the fact that Concentration-or-something is what finally fixed d20. That Paizo is making a mistake if they give us yet another jumble of 3rd edition bits and pieces with far too few constraints on casters.

Then I made the point that adding a Concentration mechanic (again, or something else) isn't enough. You must also ensure almost every spell is bound by that restriction, or it is meaningless. All that would accomplish is allowing a narrow set of spell choices to dominate, and utterly relegate the vast majority of alternatives to irrelevance.

In that light, I would submit that yes, while 5E might not be perfect, they at least took a giant leap towards actually fixing things compared to the useless refaffing that was 3.5 and "3.75".

By that I mean that Pathfinder might have enormous value because it allowed d20 to live on. But coming close to actually fixing LFQW? (Or even fixing the problems they bragged about fixing) Nope. To me, 3.0, 3,5 and PF are same same but different. Sure 3.0 might have even more imbalances than later models (details about monster damage resistance, psychic combat, what else?), but compared to 5E they're all equally outdated.

If nothing else the existence of 5E should mean no publisher will ever publish a D&D:ish game again without its fundamental upgrades to the magic framework. But the PF2 playtest isn't exactly filling me with confidence Paizo have learned the lessons taught by 5E.

Or even that they have tried to learn them...
 

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