Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2E's reception?

[Parmandur]

I have the same fear that my FLGS is about to do the same. They were really unhappy about the switch to PF2e and the pathfidner section is about 1/3 the size it was and hidden in a back corner now.

I get the impression that sounds me FLGS in these parts feel they got short shift from Paizo with the edition change, in terms of suddenly having a decent amount of material no longer sellable at MSRP they needed to unload. Combined with what seems to have been a sluggish launch, yeah, store enthusiasm locally seems scant.

 

[dave2008]

I get the impression that sounds me FLGS in these parts feel they got short shift from Paizo with the edition change, in terms of suddenly having a decent amount of material no longer sellable at MSRP they needed to unload. Combined with what seems to have been a sluggish launch, yeah, store enthusiasm locally seems scant.

That sounds pretty accurate to my experience

 

[BryonD]

Did Paizo design PF2 in an utter bubble with zero contact with the real ttrpg hobby for the last ten years or so? PF2 feels unapologetically and apocalyptically out of touch with the times.

I still strongly believe that they were way overly influenced by ten years of listening to the vocal minority complain about the flaws in 1E. I'm not at all claiming there were not flaws or areas for improvement (or even just catching up to the times, which is a very apt phrase). But they seem to have become completely blind to why 1E was such a smash hit.

In effect, it appears yes. And the "bubble" was created by that vocal minority.

 

[Acolyte of Zothique]

Well, "lightning strike" makes it out to be sheer luck with no planning.

I think there was plenty of time since the release of 5E to figure out a game with as many similarities as possible that still allow the greater crunch depth people feel are lacking from 5E.

It would have reproduced the main benefit of PF1 - being more of what D&D gamers wanted.

The only difference is that WotC isn't abandoning 5E the way they abandoned 3E, but this difference is smaller than you think: no, 5E isn't abandoned, but isnt meaningfully expanded either.

So let's not view the success of PF1 as something that can't be analysed, because it can be analysed.

What Paizo must accept is that they siceed only within WotCs orbit.

Without D&D they are, as you say, just another dndish game publisher. There are literally hundreds of such games forgotten and disused.

The only way, I believe, Paizo can stay as big as they became, is by keep playing in WotCs backyard; by releasing a "5E advanced" as it were, fulfilling a huge demand that WotC for some reason seem utterly disinterested in.

But they went with a game where you each level are asked to choose between hundreds of feats, very few of which make a meaningful difference. A game that feels like 4E in several regards.

Did Paizo design PF2 in an utter bubble with zero contact with the real ttrpg hobby for the last ten years or so? PF2 feels unapologetically and apocalyptically out of touch with the times.

WotC have a reason for not producing boatloads of player character rules crunch; they have stated they want to keep the game accessible to new players and that the PHB is the only book you need. So, not for 'some reason' but rather a very specific reason. Plus, it avoids splat bloat edition death - SPED.

 

[CapnZapp]

WotC have a reason for not producing boatloads of player character rules crunch; they have stated they want to keep the game accessible to new players and that the PHB is the only book you need. So, not for 'some reason' but rather a very specific reason. Plus, it avoids splat bloat edition death - SPED.

We're discussing the fact WotC's inaction creates a space for another game.

 

[Acolyte of Zothique]

We're discussing the fact WotC's inaction creates a space for another game.

And a poster above stated that WotC was not producing crunch for 'some reason'. I was pointing out there is a reason; it's not inaction, it's a strategy.

There is, therefore, space for another game but, six months since release, and looking at the utter lack of interest in PF2E where I live it is clear to me that PF2E is not that game. Someone, and it could be Paizo if they wanted to, could fill the demand by providing properly playtested material for 5e.

 

[dave2008]

WotC have a reason for not producing boatloads of player character rules crunch; they have stated they want to keep the game accessible to new players and that the PHB is the only book you need. So, not for 'some reason' but rather a very specific reason. Plus, it avoids splat bloat edition death - SPED.

They did just release the Gods & Magic supplement to go along with Character guide. So they are definitely providing a lot more character crunch in a shorter amount of time than WotC!

 

[JeffB]

Well, "lightning strike" makes it out to be sheer luck with no planning.

My intention of the phrase was that it won't hit the same spot again. No luck- just that everything came together in a way unlikely to happen again to ensure that kind of massive success.

 

[GrahamWills]

Based on the fan talk, the conventions I have been to and Paizo's responses, plus actual sales, it looks to me like it achieved its goals of providing a new system that is

• Easier to learn and run than PF1, but not as easy as 5E
• More depth and options than 5E, bit not as complex as PF1

It was clearly designed to fit this gap, and it seems to have done so. If you have learned PF1 and don't think it is is clunky and hard to run, you'll stick with PF1. If you find 5E gives you plenty of options and honest feel constricting, you'll go with 5E. But the evidence shows there are a lot of people who are in the camp of liking the simplicity of 5E but finding it a bit lacking in depth.

This, to me is a good thing. Competing with 5E might be that business-wise, but more importantly to me it would mean a waste of design space. 5E does what it does well -- we don't need a clone. The designers of PF2 looked at where there was a gap, and they provided a game for that gap. Some people want something in the gap, some don't.

I've never been in the camp of those who feel passionately that there is One True Game that everyone must play. 5E is a great game that I will happily recommend to most people, but I don't want to play it. And that's I think PF2's appeal and success; new players will be happier with 5E because they don't worry about breadth of options. My favorite D&D version is 13th Age because I like the way the designers tie the core elements of D&D with modern sensibilities that focus on narrative. It's the "D&D for people who lean to narrative". But my second favorite version is D&D4E, as it is D&D where it's all about the game play and extreme depth of tactual combat. I'd never recommend it to anyone (except people who come from the war-gaming community, maybe).

I used to play 5E at smaller conventions as I preferred it to PF1. But I prefer PF2 to both of them, so now I've switched to that. At the moment a lot of people are still committed to PF1 and so that community is still large, but over time my expectation is that those people will move to PF2 rather than 5E, as it's closer to what they want. PF2 is never going to be the "instant lightning" of 5E, which benefited from being the first new version of D&D that wasn't super-gamist since 2000, released at the same instant that nerd culture became cool. It's an evolution, and so adoption of it, as a previous comment mentioned "a slow burn"

 

[dave2008]

Based on the fan talk, the conventions I have been to and Paizo's responses, plus actual sales, it looks to me like it achieved its goals of providing a new system that is

• Easier to learn and run than PF1, but not as easy as 5E
• More depth and options than 5E, bit not as complex as PF1

It was clearly designed to fit this gap, and it seems to have done so. If you have learned PF1 and don't think it is is clunky and hard to run, you'll stick with PF1. If you find 5E gives you plenty of options and honest feel constricting, you'll go with 5E. But the evidence shows there are a lot of people who are in the camp of liking the simplicity of 5E but finding it a bit lacking in depth.

This, to me is a good thing. Competing with 5E might be that business-wise, but more importantly to me it would mean a waste of design space. 5E does what it does well -- we don't need a clone. The designers of PF2 looked at where there was a gap, and they provided a game for that gap. Some people want something in the gap, some don't.

I've never been in the camp of those who feel passionately that there is One True Game that everyone must play. 5E is a great game that I will happily recommend to most people, but I don't want to play it. And that's I think PF2's appeal and success; new players will be happier with 5E because they don't worry about breadth of options. My favorite D&D version is 13th Age because I like the way the designers tie the core elements of D&D with modern sensibilities that focus on narrative. It's the "D&D for people who lean to narrative". But my second favorite version is D&D4E, as it is D&D where it's all about the game play and extreme depth of tactual combat. I'd never recommend it to anyone (except people who come from the war-gaming community, maybe).

I used to play 5E at smaller conventions as I preferred it to PF1. But I prefer PF2 to both of them, so now I've switched to that. At the moment a lot of people are still committed to PF1 and so that community is still large, but over time my expectation is that those people will move to PF2 rather than 5E, as it's closer to what they want. PF2 is never going to be the "instant lightning" of 5E, which benefited from being the first new version of D&D that wasn't super-gamist since 2000, released at the same instant that nerd culture became cool. It's an evolution, and so adoption of it, as a previous comment mentioned "a slow burn"

I think you are correct it occupies the complexity vs simplicity model between PF1 & 5e; however, it is how and where on that spectrum that some take issue with. It is not like it fills the space between the 2, there is more design space to work with.