Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Alpha "crunch" discussion

[AllisterH]

I wanted to add my voice to those who agreed with this statement. I imagine 1st-level characters to be only somewhat more talented than the average peasant. He's young and starting a new life. Maybe he'll become local or national hero in the coming years, and then an important lord in his twilight years. Or maybe he'll be worm food. What he should not be is a gimicky killing machine right out of the starting gates, which is one of my main beefs with 3.0, 3.5, and now this 3.75. I know a lot of folks here prefer this video gamey style of play, and I do very much like Paizo's work, but I don't think this will be for me. Oh, and I don't like the WoW way the elves are presented.

Now I'm going to defend Paizo.

I think the increase in power at low levels is simple. Time spent Character playing should not be less than time spent character creation.

Even in 1E/2E's faster character creation process, it still is, discouraging I guess, to have to spend 5-10 minutes creating a character to have that character killed without even rolling a die.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

I've often wanted to run a game where racial substitution levels took the place of favored class, and the characters took their first three levels as racial levels. It would be a compromise between the 'competent at birth' and the 'killed by harsh language' group.

 

[Pinotage]

I've often wanted to run a game where racial substitution levels took the place of favored class, and the characters took their first three levels as racial levels. It would be a compromise between the 'competent at birth' and the 'killed by harsh language' group.

I was thinking of something similar actually just recently. People often complain that race flavor doesn't carry through until higher levels, and having 'automatic' racial substitution levels as one progresses helps to address this. They don't actually even have to be levels per se, just the improvements to abilities of the race, for example.

Pinotage

 

[Geron Raveneye]

I don't think you really understand the big magic item problem.

The Big Six are the BEST items you can get for your buck. The original 3.0 monsters, especially at high levels, DIDN"T assume that parties would be statted out like that. A good example would be the Pit Fiend whose CR dopped in 3.5 as well as latter monsters which for their CR would stomp their original 3.0 CR-equivalent counterparts.

If the main classes get more powerful, this doesn't mean that the player of a wizard is going to say "ok, I'm powerful enough, I'll spend/trade/use that non-Big Six item". He's going to still choose the Headband of Intellect because given its price when compared to anything else, it IS the best item for that cost.

Thus, end result, more powerful wizard requires more powerful monster which plays havoc with 3.5 characters.

You're encouraging an arms race and I'm not sure why Pathfinder is doing this

BTW, what's up with the gnome's hair colour?

No, what I don't understand is the assumption that the characters will have such an easy access to all those magical items. Sorry if that sounds a bit ignorant, but the problems you (and others) allude to (and not just now, I know) simply never popped up in my games, so I can only take the words of others for that. Yeah, a friend of mine had a Spelljammer 3E game that crashed because he gave the characters WAY too much cash, and allowed literally every kind of item imaginable on account of Spelljammer being a magic-rich setting. But that's the only real-life second hand experience I have with this problem.

To be honest, even my own guess at the intention of Pathfinder's boosters to the classes is pure theory, since I'm simply going by the assumption that there is an inherent problem in the 3E rules concerning magical item availability, and not one that comes from a trend in playstyles that simply grew out of control. From there, looking at the internalized boosters in the Alpha rules makes me think Buhlman et al. try to prevent that from taking over Pathfinder, too.

For example, your wizard seems to go by the expectation that he can come into a large enough town, wave enough money, and get to choose a Headband of Intellect from the selection of magical items. Could you tell me how he GETS that expectation in the first place, and why it should be fulfilled as if he was shopping for lamp oil? I'm really curious, since that is so far away from my own gaming experiences it simply leaves me stumped for an answer. So help me out, please?

As for the gnome hair color? The racial line-up in the Alpha rules are totally anime and videogamey. And this is not a joke.

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

As for the gnome hair color? The racial line-up in the Alpha rules are totally anime and videogamey. And this is not a joke.

Yeah, I'm not digging the Space Channel 5 gnomes.

 

[Lord Zack]

They're members of a magical fey-like race. It's not much of stretch for me to imagine Gnomes having unusual hair colors.

 

[Voadam]

Using the alpha races with 25 point-buy is roughly equivalent to bog-standard races with 28 points, which is what we've been using forever.

Wouldn't a better comparison be someone using the power boost in a high relevant score? Say a pathfinder dwarf cleric with +2 wisdom spending 10 points to get an 18 wisdom instead of a core dwarf cleric spending 16 points to get an 18, or a core dwarf spending 10 points to be 6 point buy behind the pathfinder one.

So I guess using alpha races you could balance against core by using a 22 instead of 28 point buy. A noticeable enough power difference I think. And I don't see the design point for this base power change. I'm not sure what problem with core 3.5 this is designed to fix.

I think in the Morningstar and Dawforge d20 campaign settings they have modified their core races to be more powerful than the base core ones without adding in LA, but they are for the purposes of showing that people in those settings are more powerful and are not intended to be used alongside other core races or modules without modification.

 

[catsclaw227]

No, what I don't understand is the assumption that the characters will have such an easy access to all those magical items. Sorry if that sounds a bit ignorant, but the problems you (and others) allude to (and not just now, I know) simply never popped up in my games, so I can only take the words of others for that.

I understand what you are trying to say, but I think that the problem lies in the "wealth guidelines" and what the Big Six can provide.

It only takes an 8th level wizard and 18Kgp to make a Headband of Intellect +6, so if a 10th level party (49K wealth each) has a wizard with Craft Wondrous Item, then it doesn't require a magic item shop to make them decked out in the bling.

 

[Voadam]

For example, your wizard seems to go by the expectation that he can come into a large enough town, wave enough money, and get to choose a Headband of Intellect from the selection of magical items. Could you tell me how he GETS that expectation in the first place, and why it should be fulfilled as if he was shopping for lamp oil? I'm really curious, since that is so far away from my own gaming experiences it simply leaves me stumped for an answer. So help me out, please?

I'm not the person you were asking but I can offer some insight.

A wizard with 2,000 gp, craft wondrous item feat, and the prereq 2nd level spell of fox's cunning can do it if he secures a workspace and the 4 days of crafting time. If he has the gold he can do this at 3rd level.

My wizard made one for himself early on and then upgraded it later.

They are not hard to make and are very useful. It makes sense that if there are enchanters who craft items for sale, the easy to make and useful ones would be good items to craft.

Even if they are not stocked, expecting a crafter to be able to make a stat booster or a +X weapon or armor or shield on commission is not unreasonable. It doesn't take that long for a crafter to make them until you get into the high expensive plusses.

Even if magic item trade is only from loot, NPCs often have the big six too if they can because they are so useful. In my 1e/2e campaigns where crafting was tough rings of protection and +1 weapons or armor were common loot straight out of modules.

If you scrap the item creation feats, the 3e DMG guidelines on NPC spellcasters and magic item availability in average markets, and NPC possession of these types of items, then there should be no expectation of availability of easy acquisition of these types of items.

But under default D&D I'd say the assumptions are reasonable.

 

[AllisterH]

They're members of a magical fey-like race. It's not much of stretch for me to imagine Gnomes having unusual hair colors.

Seriously, when did gnomes become a magical fey race? At the beginning of 3.0 in the PHB, they're listed as inventors/alchemist and great friends with dwarves and this remains the same in the 3.5 PHB.

When did gnomes start be equating with fey and NOT dwarves? And really, multicoloured hair that would never be seen in nature? Seriously, that is so ANIME. (yeah, yeah, I went there but come on, even in anime, multicoloured hair is NOT common, so that's even more ANIME than Anime).

re: Stat boosters.
As others have pointed out, the stat boosters and weapon enhancements are easily made by the party wizard so unless Paizo is cutting the item creation feats off or excising those spells, I fail to see WHY the party won't have them.

They are the best bang for your buck you can get. A (+4) Stat booster costs 16k gp and looking at the list of magic items, there really is nothing as "useful" to a character. For example, for approx the same cost, you could get a Figurine of Wondrous Power (golden Lions). As much as we rail about power-gaming, I'd be honestly surprised for an in-chracter reason for a PC to take the Golden Lions over the Headband, all things being equal.

re:Races
I do think the races gained more a couple of points. Stat up for example, a 5th level elven wizard using the pathfinder racial and favored class rules and compare it to a bog standard 3.5 racial writeup for the same class and race,.

Look, I could understand bumps in power for the half-elves and the half-orcs but for the other races? WHY, expecially with backwards compatibility.