Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Alpha "crunch" discussion

[alleynbard]

Ugh. The trouble with discussing it on the Paizo message boards is that their message boards are awful. Besides the rather ugly design (IMHO), they are painfully slow and prone to lose posts.

Anyway, I agree with Alzrius - at least personally, I'd like to see Pathfinder as close to 3.5 as possible. The biggest selling point for me is compatability with 3.x, not fixing its problems (which people seem to disagree on)

I agree. And I think the alpha rules have already gone too far in some areas. I would like to see them scale back a bit.

Feats are great example. I don't mind throwing more feats at a character but completely re-vamping how certain feats work, thus creating Combat Feats, just makes it difficult to use older material.

 

[AllisterH]

More thoughts on races.

After skimming over the PDF, I went back and took a close look at RACES once again.

1. Why the increase in power for ALL of the races? IF this game is supposed to be compatible with 3.5, the fewer changes the better.

2. The +2 to specific Perception checks. Um, WHY? For one, the dwarven one will rarely show up (taste and touch) whereas the halfling one is just asking for DM headaches (sound and taste).

The favoured class rules needs to be seriously looked at, especially in relation to high CON races. (For example, an elven bard at 20th level will have 60 hp less than an gnomish bard. Having such a wide disparity between members of the same class I worry is not a good thing)

My other problems still seem huge...humans and half-elves become less attractive, the dwarven power-up....

 

[alleynbard]

Yes, evil clerics can deal (level/2+1)d6 damage to all living creatures within a 30-ft burst (save for half) while simultaneously healing his undead minions an equal amount, 3+(cha mod) times per day.

Remember, kill the cleric first!

(And hope the DM doesn't replace one level n cleric with two level (n-2) clerics, or worse....)

On the plus side, it looks like Rebuking Undead also damages the evil cleric, too. Well, unless the cleric is also undead.

And let's hope that combat with one or two clerics doesn't involve a number of ghast minions. They recieve positive energy resistance 5 under these rules. It makes up for their lost turn resistance. The cleric would end up not doing as much damage as they could and healing the enemy clerics all at once.

 

[Nellisir]

On the other hand I'm a little concerned about Rebuke Undead being used to damage living opponents. (Don't have the document handy but that's what I remember...)

What if the healing and harming of living creatures was only one point per die, instead of d6, or 1/die+Wisdom? You can argue that the living are less vulnerable to pure positive/negative energy than the undead. Still a boost or a penalty, but not nearly as severe.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

Actually, this does not bother me at all. I don't think race should play a big deal after the game starts beyond racial prestige classes. Among my disappointment that I recall (besides the skill system) were

1. having things like Dwarven greed and non-biological elements included in the race. I am still waiting for some third party to strip out the non-biological elements of the races and balance them on non-cultural elements and then provide cultural/background packages (e.g. forest dweller, hill dweller, arctic dweller, noble, nomad, urban-professional, urban-street) that can be added on to a race like a template. This would allow DMs easy rulings for a character of one race raised by another and if, done with some thought out system, provides DMs a basis for creating their own cultures.

2. having armor and weapons built into the classes as automatic proficiencies. One thing that I was hoping with 4e was that it would have opened up the classes for more customization by removing automatic armor and weapon proficiencies and giving a first level character additional bonus feats to spend from a class list of bonus feats. Armor and Weapon Proficiencies would be bonus feats that can be chosen from this list. This makes the characters initial choices of class and feats more imporant as it prevents someone from multiclassing later into a martial class and gaining proficiency in all martial weapons and multiple armor types.

I like the fantasy race stereotypes. Nature v. nurture belongs in a psychiatry paper, not D&D.

 

[kinem]

I haven't looked at the rules in detail yet, but what I did see was a very noticable power bump. To me, that's not fixing a problem, that's causing a problem. I know some people complained about the frailty of low level characters, but I wasn't one of them, and this seems like it would just throw the CR system out of whack and make a serious hash out of attempts to convert non-standard races in even somewhat balanced. In other words, it's a fairly significant blow to backwards compatability, which defeats the purpose, IMO.

What do you think of this quick-and-dirty backwards compatibility system?
Pathfinder PCs (with extra hp) have +1 LA

 

[Tessarael]

On the topic of favored classes, why not give each race that gets a pick of one, a pick of two instead, or as appropriate for their racial ability bonuses.

Dwarf - Fighter or Cleric
Elf - Ranger or Wizard
Gnome - Bard or Sorcerer
Halfling - Rogue or Wizard
Half-Elf - pick any one favored class
Half-Orc - Barbarian or Cleric
Human - pick any one favored class

I would like to see a race with +2 Wisdom have the option of Druid ... Elf would be appropriate, but that doesn't work with the +2 intelligence as the theme is +2 to one physical stat and +2 to one mental stat. I'm not sure that +2 to Intelligence works for Halfling ... I would prefer to see +2 Charisma/+2 Dexterity for Halfling (favored class Bard or Rogue), and +2 Intelligence/+2 Constituion for Gnome (favored class Wizard or Rogue).

Another interesting option is to allow more choice:

(Base Elf is +2 Dex, -2 Con)
smart Grey Elf: +2 Dex/+2 Int/-2 Con (Rogue or Wizard)
charismatic High Elf: +2 Dex/+2 Cha/-2 Con (Bard or Sorcerer)
wise Wood Elf: +2 Dex/+2 Wisdom/-2 Con (Druid or Ranger)

(Base half-Orc is +2 Str, -2 Int)
half-Orc Brute: +4 Str/-2 Int (Barbarian or Fighter)
half-Orc Stalwart: +2 Str/+2 Con/-2 Int (Barbarian or Fighter)
half-Orc Shaman: +2 Str/+2 Wis/-2 Int (Cleric or Ranger)
half-Orc Thug: +2 Str/+2 Dex/-2 Int (Fighter or Rogue)

(Base Dwarf is +2 Con)
Dwarven Matron: +2 Con/+2 Wis/-2 Cha (Cleric or Fighter)
Dwarven Stalwart: +4 Con/-2 Dex (Barbarian or Fighter)
Dwarven Warden: +2 Con/+2 Wis/-2 Int (Cleric or Paladin)

Similarly for other races. No reason to restrict to one favored class per race, or one specific set of ability bonuses.

Edit: ideas like this can be optional rules, so that a DM can say no, but allowing more variation and more flavor if DM and players want that in their campaign.

I quite like what I've seen of the Pathfinder RPG, though I would make some major changes to the skill system.

Just random thoughts.

 

[blargney the second]

Using the alpha races with 25 point-buy is roughly equivalent to bog-standard races with 28 points, which is what we've been using forever.

 

[bowbe]

I like:

The CR/EXP breakdown chart. I've always hated the CR system from 3.x. I think its crap. Turning rules were also crap, so the Pathfinder change is nice. It isn't new territory to use turning abilities in a different way. White Wolf started the ball rolling with Scarred Lands and WOTC snatched that idea up and added jet fuel to it for various other powers, adding the equivelant of another half dozen spells to the clerics arsenal as spell like abilities or mega magic feats to severely increase spell power when tapped to spells that didn't offer any form of legitimate spell resistance or saves!

Also approve of the increased HD for character classes because quite honestly, if a stinkin goblin or kobold has base d8 HD in the PHB... even the basic character classes should have a d8 HD despite their profession! I don't think being born a human or halfling or whatever and deciding to become a wizard should suffice losing 1/2 a hit die, so d6 for wizards is a good start d8 for everyone would be way better. If you want to reflect that your character doesn't work out and eat right because they are a so and so class (say gamer)... give the class a con penalty instead of a wimpy Hit Die (I.E. Gamer takes -4 to con because of diet of mountain dew and cheetos... Pro Football player gets +3 strength -2 Con due to (ab)use of vitamin S(teroid).

I agree with most of the posters who are concerned with over ampage of already over-amped character classes. That feels a little "keeping up with the jones's" vis. a vi. 4e. Just because Wizards thinks over-amping a character class is what is really needed for D&D because a couple thousand organized players checked "yes" on a questionair doesn't make it right for the 10's of thousands of other gamers in the world who liked their D&D more or less just the way it was.

I do see a solid design reason why our friends at Paizo would go that route with Pathfinder RPG however. It shows a "difference" between Pathfinder and 3.5. Staying the course with magic and abilities makes it 3.5 and not a unique game. Thus ampage +/- = product identity. I get that, I'm fine with that. In fact kudos for admitting up front its a different but OGL BASED game with true backwards compatibility from the get go.

Powering magic powers or whatever DOWN for character classes leads you to Conan, Game of Thrones, and Iron Heroes. Games that already exist and are available. Power it down more = C&C.

Also, thanks to admins and poobah's for allowing this thread to stay here where it can be easily found and not banishing it elswhere. As the honerable Eric Noah has pointed out, some folks feel more comfortable/convenient posting their initial thoughts here... and as the Respected and admired Erik Mona has pointed out... Paizo's folk are everywhere because they have a +20 stealth and sense.

Case

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Hmm. Some thoughts I came up with last evening/this morning:

To ensure backwards compatibility, the best thing would be to keep the stat blocks and class abilities the same, and just add a little different "resolution" mechanics to it. Changing the mechanics for Turning for example can be done without changing the "Turn Undead" entry in the class table.
Adding new class abilities and more feats can be problematic, since it means that old stat blocks are no longer valid. But if you absolutely have to do it, consider how it changes the overall game balance, especially in regard to adventure pacing and PC vs NPC balance. Adding more AC and Attack bonus to a Fighter will change the balance, and you suddenly have to deal with "virtual Level Adjustments" for balancing encounters.

So, here are some thoughts what I think might work in this context:
15 minute adventure day or at least "spellcasters not casting spells due to the need of spell conversion":
- The rules for cantrips are good in this case. Cast them as often as you like, but still need to prepare/learn them individually. I would consider improving the damage of some of these spells (Acid Splash might deal 1d6 points of acid damage instead 1d3 and so on.)
To be taken into consideration: Saving Throw DCs are 10 + 1/2 caster level + casting ability score modifier. (might not be a good idea, considering spells like Daze, whose effect is valid for every level)
- Expand the cantrip rules for higher level spells.
Caster Level 6: Choose one 1st level spell you know (spontaneous caster) or you have prepared. You can recover this spell by expending a <insert your favored action type here>/resting for <insert your favored duration> to recover the spell. You can only recover spells whose duration already ended. (dispelled, dismissed, or run out).
Caster Level 10: Choose one 1st and one 2nd level spell you know/have prepared. (see rest above)
Caster Level 16: Choose one 1st, one 2nd and one 3rd level you know/have prepared. (see rest above.)
Caster Level 20: Choose one 1st, one 2nd, one 3rd and one 4th level you know/have prepared. (see rest above)
Option: Remove extra spell slots due to high ability modifier.
Optionally: Do not choose just one spell of each level, but a total of Casting Ability Modifier -spell level (or spell level +1?). (but only gain spells of the highest level at 6th, 10th, 16th and 20th level)

Effect on game balance is limited, but certainly existing. Note that you with the infinite cure minor orison Wand of Cure Light Wounds are history anyway. (and if cure minor is to slow to your taste, at 6th level cure light wounds itself should do the job.)
Adventure Pacing allows more encounters per day, and the average EL per encounter can go up, since you certainly won't spend unrecoveraly 20 % of your resources.
(Hit points and the low level spells are guaranteed to return if at least one healer is in the party). Still, most adventures will probably work as they used to, just that the group will go on longer.

Instead of making this a class ability, you could use magical items ("implements" á la 4E) to get this effect.
Implements are: Holy Symbols (Divine Casters), Wands/Staffs/Orbs (arcane spellcasters), Musical Instruments (Bards), and possibly even a Weapon (Duskblades?).
Implements have a bonus listed just as weapons (+1 to +5.) They cost (Bonus Squared) x 4.000 gp. You recover one spell slot per spell level you have access to, but no spells higher than the enhancement bonus. A implement needs to be attuned to the caster and the specific spells it is to recover. Only one implement can be attuned at the same time, and attuning requires one hour.

Maybe I will get around to also post this on the Paizo board.