Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Alpha "crunch" discussion

[Twiggly the Gnome]

They're members of a magical fey-like race. It's not much of stretch for me to imagine Gnomes having unusual hair colors.

That's just a single point, I'm fairly unimpressed with the total package. Singing and dancing anime girls/boys who rely on personal charm over natural cunning, and adopt an obsessive compulsion to quiet the voices in their head compelling them to flee into the woods to frolic with pixies. It's an interesting idea for a race, but it isn't particularly gnomish.

 

[JoeGKushner]

That's just a single point, I'm fairly unimpressed with the total package. Singing and dancing anime girls/boys who rely on personal charm over natural cunning, and adopt an obsessive compulsion to quiet the voices in their head compelling them to flee into the woods to frolic with pixies. It's an interesting idea for a race, but it isn't particularly gnomish.

I agree.

More dragonborn, less gnomes!

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Re: stat boosters

I think I get the point...or at least I hope I do. Still looks to me like 75% a playstyle that got out of hand. Sure, it is an assumption that is not unreasonable. As it is not unreasonable that an NPC spellcaster will charge you a good part more (require services, etc) to blow a load of his XP on crafting an item for you. I can't see a magic item shop springing up from this either. And a PC crafting for a group mate? Yeah, once or twice, maybe, but really, it's the same bad habit as forcing a cleric to be a "healing machine" for the group. I hope Pathfinder takes a pointer and at least modifies the item creation system. Anyway, this whole thing is a "pet peeve" you could say...and an example for how clarified rules simply don't work like they were intended to. Maybe magic item creation should go back to being hard, mysterious and obscure. The "best" part is that the "wealth by level" giudelines are strictly DM's tools, but apparently have grown to become standard player expectations. :\

A 5th level elven wizard under Pathfinder rules will have:
- +2 to Intelligence
- +2 to overcome spell resistance
- a better reception by people who are "Indifferent"
- 10 Hit Points more (+5 average class, +5 from favored class)
- 3 prepared cantrips he can cast at will
- 3 school powers (Universal): Hand of the Apprentice (At will, SU): Ghostly hand that uses your weapon to attack foes within 30 feet while you concentrate on it. Shield (2/day, SP): As the spell. Levitate (1/day, SP): As the spell.

That's beyond that which a 3.5E elven wizard level 5 has. Bonus spells are gone, the familiar has a bonded item as alternative, bonus feats are still there. The Pathfinder wizard doesn't need a Headband of Intellect too soon, neither any "health item", or as many charged items for combat, and he'll be more "magicy" in flavor (something a lot of folks complained about with Vancian Magic).
I dunno...I actually like it, listed like that.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

to me it seems like a good way to get away from the xmas tree effect .the boosts arnt to much really and it makes classes less depend on having to have said magic item to stay effective. I'm hoping they scale the wealth system back a bit too.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Seriously, when did gnomes become a magical fey race? At the beginning of 3.0 in the PHB, they're listed as inventors/alchemist and great friends with dwarves and this remains the same in the 3.5 PHB.

When did gnomes start be equating with fey and NOT dwarves? And really, multicoloured hair that would never be seen in nature? Seriously, that is so ANIME. (yeah, yeah, I went there but come on, even in anime, multicoloured hair is NOT common, so that's even more ANIME than Anime).

I guess you could even make a case for dwarves as a fey race, if you look at some of the more scandinavic roots of dwarves. It's one if those points...I love gnomes for the simple reason that they fill a perfect niche as dwarf-like crafters of magical items. They fill the role of Alberich in the Ring of the Nibelungen legend, or that of the dvergar or svartalfar from nordic tales...men-shaped creators of magical items that live under the earth. Of course, the D&D gnome has been polished away from that root a LOT, but they basically fit. Dwarves are the guys who create weapons and armors of high quality, stone architecture and other great works...gnomes are their relatives who know the tricky magic by heart, prefer the more detailed work of jewelry and clockwork, and delight in enchanting everything for their own enjoyment and gain.
It's what always made me scratch my head when people claimed gnomes filled no niche of their own.

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

I like the fey angle for gnomes would like to see them go back to illusionists and less bards heck even druid would be cool. I love that there tricksters and tinkers they dabble with things . and yes if elves can have odd eyes and hair why cant gnomes . besides that art was reused who knows how the real pic will look.

 

[AllisterH]

A 5th level elven wizard under Pathfinder rules will have:
- +2 to Intelligence
- +2 to overcome spell resistance
- a better reception by people who are "Indifferent"
- 10 Hit Points more (+5 average class, +5 from favored class)
- 3 prepared cantrips he can cast at will
- 3 school powers (Universal): Hand of the Apprentice (At will, SU): Ghostly hand that uses your weapon to attack foes within 30 feet while you concentrate on it. Shield (2/day, SP): As the spell. Levitate (1/day, SP): As the spell.

That's beyond that which a 3.5E elven wizard level 5 has. Bonus spells are gone, the familiar has a bonded item as alternative, bonus feats are still there. The Pathfinder wizard doesn't need a Headband of Intellect too soon, neither any "health item", or as many charged items for combat, and he'll be more "magicy" in flavor (something a lot of folks complained about with Vancian Magic).
I dunno...I actually like it, listed like that.

1) Bonus spells are not gone. They have become fixed but gain the spell-like characteristic which has its own benefits (namely no material components).
2) The extra +2 to intelligence gives our elven wizard, effectively Spell Focus in ALL of their schools. It also means that the wizard probably gains 1 extra spell to cast due to their higher intelligence.
3) The wizard ALSO has one extra feat (Pathfinder characters gain feats at every odd levels)

YEAH....I could see the "at-will cantrips" to give a boost for starting wizards but all of this? Not only is it excessive, but the elven wizard is now "The best" by a significant margin.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

1) Bonus spells are not gone. They have become fixed but gain the spell-like characteristic which has its own benefits (namely no material components).

See my entry under "School Powers".

2) The extra +2 to intelligence gives our elven wizard, effectively Spell Focus in ALL of their schools. It also means that the wizard probably gains 1 extra spell to cast due to their higher intelligence.

Seeing as this is comparable with an internalized Headband of Intellect +2 that is not necessary anymore now...is this bad in any way?
Also, I must correct myself...bonus spells are still in! I've got to say, this is something that should definitely be stricken. Gotta mention that on the Paizo board. This is indeed a bit too much of a power-up. :\

3) The wizard ALSO has one extra feat (Pathfinder characters gain feats at every odd levels)

Yep, sorry for missing that...he also gains an extra metamagic feat from the universalist school.

 

[AllisterH]

So, in conclusion, a 5th level Elven wizard using PATHfinder rules gains when compared to a 3.5 RAW Elven Wizard,

+2 to Intelligence, which translates to Spell Focus in ALL the schools, PLUS more spells per day due to high intelligence.
+2 to overcome Spell Resistance (effectively Spell Penetration)
+10 HP
3 orisons he can cast at will
3 school powers (Universal): Hand of the Apprentice (At will, SU): Ghostly hand that uses your weapon to attack foes within 30 feet while you concentrate on it. Shield (2/day, SP): As the spell. Levitate (1/day, SP): As the spell. Keep in mind, in 3.5, the generalist didn't receive the extra spell per spell level a la the specialist. These extra powers are on TOP of what a 3.5 generalist wizard has.
1 extra feat and 1 extra metamagic feat
Item creation times cut in half.

You keep insisting that with these upgrades that the wizard no longer needs the Headband of Intellect but I don't think you understand truly WHY the stat boosters became ubquitous.

When 3.0 first appeared, WOTC honestly didn't understand the power of the stat boosters. Namely the fact that they are ALWAYS ON thus allowing you to use your own powers. Gamers naturally went for them (and frankly, this WAS in-character role-playing. Give me an option between a 2008 Chryseler 300 and a VW Beetle from the Flowerchild era and I'm taking the better option) and that's what made them the big six.

Not because they were NEEDED per se (that came later when WOTC realized its monsters at mid to high level were getting demolished) but because they were the BEST items.

Wait, should I even look at the cleric to see how much more powerful they made it?

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

well the universal school will prob change it is to strong since they give nothing up but I dont have an issue with anything else you wrote really.