Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder BETA - Some Sizzle, Not Much Steak

[neceros]

Wow: This thread sky-rocketed. Well, I missed the boat, but I'll repost it anyhow.

I'm not a writer. I give you a fair disclaimer that what you see below has not been edited to much any great extent, and I have a chaotic mind. It's hard for me to put my thoughts down on paper.

Below you'll find some revisions to the core 3.5 system, which Pathfinder is base upon. These changes, so far as I notice, do not remove backwards compatibility. There may be instances where you will have to alter some aspects to fit it better with these new rules. For instance, monsters may need to be altered to fit. Then again, add a couple more hitpoints to each monster and call it good.

1. Save DCs
Any attack that opposes a saving throw is now calculated thus, including powers, spells and abilities: 10 + Half Caster level + Ability bonus.

2. Armor Class
Characters now gain half their Character Level as an unnamed bonus to their armor class.

3. Magic Items

• Enhancement bonus to armor class may only be applied to armor, and not to rings, bracers, etc. Cloth (Robes, shirts) may be enchanted like normal armor, but must fulfill all other requirements per normal (must be masterwork, etc).
• Miscellaneous magic items that provide a bonus to AC now provide a maximum +1 to AC (ie, ring of protection cannot exceed +1).
• Implements may be enchanted to benefit casters in their spell save DCs and bonuses to hit when using spells. These foci must be enchanted using the same rules for enchanting weapons, with the same enhancement bonuses applying to the attacks and damages of the user's spells. Example: A wizard enchants a staff with a +2 enhancement. His or her staff now gives an additional +2 item bonus to all his or her spell save dcs. This staff costs 8,000 gold, as is normal for a +2 weapon. Enhancements may apply to only one of either save dcs or bonus to attack with spells, but not both.

4. Death Effects
All spells and abilities that have an instant death effect (save or die) are removed. In exchange, those abilities may stun or deal damage depending on a case by case circumstance.

Alternatively, someone suggested that death effects be replaced with rules similar to the Death Domain, from 3.5 PHB special ability.

5. Caster Levels (Manifester Levels)
Caster level, spells know, and spells per level for spell casting classes are given a multiclass bonus equal to half the value of all classes not already giving you caster levels for that particular class. This multiclass bonus may not exceed the class level providing the original caster level. This bonus works in the same way a "+1 arcane/divine caster level" would work from prestige classes. This bonus does not give you any other benefits that you might acquire from leveling in your normal caster level class, including class abilities, only spells, spells known and caster levels. Below are examples.

• 4 Wizard / 10 Fighter: Wizard gains +4 to caster level from Fighter class. The Fighter actually gives a +5, but this bonus is limited because it may not exceed the Wizard class level of 4.
• 5 Cleric / 4 Druid: Gain +2 bonus for both the druid and cleric caster levels from the opposite classes. Druid now has a CL or 6, and Cleric has a 7, on a 9th level character.

6. Saving Throws
All saving throws calculated as follows: half character level + ability bonus. Classes who previously had "good saves" (a +2 bonus at level 1) give a one time class bonus of +2 to that saving throw. You may gain the class bonus to saving throws only once at first level, thus multiclassing into a different class will not benefit your saving throws.

7. Iterative Attacks
When indicated to get another attack from your class table, you gain the attack as normal per your BAB score. However, instead of the -5 to attack, the character receives a -2 penalty per attack starting with the second attack. For example, a 16 level Fighter has a BAB of 16, as his table indicates he has four attacks: +16/+11/+6/+1. Instead of the normal -5 down the line, instead replace that with a -2, so it would be as follows: +16/+14/+12/+10. You still follow your table to determine how many attacks you get, but not the modifier to said rolls.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I never said criticizing 4e wasn't done, I said it was taboo; those that did it were reported immidiately, then beaten with rods and stones.


I recently got my hands on Pathfinder, but with the move and all, it'll be a bit before I can properly give my thoughts on it. I really like what I've read so far, though. The rage points for barbarians I can see working great.

 

[Hjorimir]

Wow: This thread sky-rocketed. Well, I missed the boat, but I'll repost it anyhow.

I'm not a writer. I give you a fair disclaimer that what you see below has not been edited to much any great extent, and I have a chaotic mind. It's hard for me to put my thoughts down on paper.

Below you'll find some revisions to the core 3.5 system, which Pathfinder is base upon. These changes, so far as I notice, do not remove backwards compatibility. There may be instances where you will have to alter some aspects to fit it better with these new rules. For instance, monsters may need to be altered to fit. Then again, add a couple more hitpoints to each monster and call it good.

1. Save DCs
Any attack that opposes a saving throw is now calculated thus, including powers, spells and abilities: 10 + Half Caster level + Ability bonus.

2. Armor Class
Characters now gain half their Character Level as an unnamed bonus to their armor class.

3. Magic Items

• Enhancement bonus to armor class may only be applied to armor, and not to rings, bracers, etc. Cloth (Robes, shirts) may be enchanted like normal armor, but must fulfill all other requirements per normal (must be masterwork, etc).
• Miscellaneous magic items that provide a bonus to AC now provide a maximum +1 to AC (ie, ring of protection cannot exceed +1).
• Implements may be enchanted to benefit casters in their spell save DCs and bonuses to hit when using spells. These foci must be enchanted using the same rules for enchanting weapons, with the same enhancement bonuses applying to the attacks and damages of the user's spells. Example: A wizard enchants a staff with a +2 enhancement. His or her staff now gives an additional +2 item bonus to all his or her spell save dcs. This staff costs 8,000 gold, as is normal for a +2 weapon. Enhancements may apply to only one of either save dcs or bonus to attack with spells, but not both.

4. Death Effects
All spells and abilities that have an instant death effect (save or die) are removed. In exchange, those abilities may stun or deal damage depending on a case by case circumstance.

Alternatively, someone suggested that death effects be replaced with rules similar to the Death Domain, from 3.5 PHB special ability.

5. Caster Levels (Manifester Levels)
Caster level, spells know, and spells per level for spell casting classes are given a multiclass bonus equal to half the value of all classes not already giving you caster levels for that particular class. This multiclass bonus may not exceed the class level providing the original caster level. This bonus works in the same way a "+1 arcane/divine caster level" would work from prestige classes. This bonus does not give you any other benefits that you might acquire from leveling in your normal caster level class, including class abilities, only spells, spells known and caster levels. Below are examples.

• 4 Wizard / 10 Fighter: Wizard gains +4 to caster level from Fighter class. The Fighter actually gives a +5, but this bonus is limited because it may not exceed the Wizard class level of 4.
• 5 Cleric / 4 Druid: Gain +2 bonus for both the druid and cleric caster levels from the opposite classes. Druid now has a CL or 6, and Cleric has a 7, on a 9th level character.

6. Saving Throws
All saving throws calculated as follows: half character level + ability bonus. Classes who previously had "good saves" (a +2 bonus at level 1) give a one time class bonus of +2 to that saving throw. You may gain the class bonus to saving throws only once at first level, thus multiclassing into a different class will not benefit your saving throws.

7. Iterative Attacks
When indicated to get another attack from your class table, you gain the attack as normal per your BAB score. However, instead of the -5 to attack, the character receives a -2 penalty per attack starting with the second attack. For example, a 16 level Fighter has a BAB of 16, as his table indicates he has four attacks: +16/+11/+6/+1. Instead of the normal -5 down the line, instead replace that with a -2, so it would be as follows: +16/+14/+12/+10. You still follow your table to determine how many attacks you get, but not the modifier to said rolls.

All steps in the right direction, but what I'd want is to see some serious efforts to lighten the DMs workload. I don't want to have to create NPCs and monsters with the same arduous process required for the PCs. I don't want to have to track durations for spells (i.e. powers). If Pazio could find a balanced way to combine the player side of 3.x and the DM side of 4e, I'd be there. 3.x is fine to run at low levels, but the big breakdown for me (as the guy who is always DMing) is the geometric rate at which prep time increases as the characters gain levels.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

As for the example of the Barbarian Rage pool, that really isnt alot of bookkeeping. ymmv.

I wonder if book-keeping here isn't the wrong word. Counting Rage/day or Rage Points/day might be the same. The thing is you add a new decision point to the class. I Rage and add benefit X, instead of just "I rage".

And that is changing the Barbarian class a lot, in my opinion. Previously, is was a well-designed, fun class, very suitable for a beginning player, or someone that just wants some quick & easy fun evening with his character.
But now, it adds a new type of resource management to the class. Sure, you can ignrore that, but you know it's there, you know there is something you are not using of your character. And that changes how the class is perceived, and can lessen the enjoyment.

 

[neceros]

I wonder if book-keeping here isn't the wrong word. Counting Rage/day or Rage Points/day might be the same. The thing is you add a new decision point to the class. I Rage and add benefit X, instead of just "I rage".

And that is changing the Barbarian class a lot, in my opinion. Previously, is was a well-designed, fun class, very suitable for a beginning player, or someone that just wants some quick & easy fun evening with his character.
But now, it adds a new type of resource management to the class. Sure, you can ignrore that, but you know it's there, you know there is something you are not using of your character. And that changes how the class is perceived, and can lessen the enjoyment.

Something about this thought process makes me unnerved. I'm not sure what exactly is ensuing this unhappiness, but it's there.

Perhaps I just appreciate options in all it's forms. If I don't feel like using rage points, than so be it: I won't. However, when the kitchen gets hot I know I have some backup just in case.

I just feel it's always better to have more options, than not have any when you need them. Ultimately, it comes down to: "You roll an attack; do you want a +2 to everything or not?"

 

[Fenes]

With regards to backwards compability: I've been using the 3.5 monster compendium in my 3.0 game without any troubles. Same for 3.5 or 3.0 classes and prestige classes, including Book of 9 Swords. If one does not sweat the details, it works very well for the DM. The only fine tuning needed is with the PCs, but NPCs don't need all details and numbers perfected.

I don't really see any problems using PF material with 3.0 or 3.5 materials.

 

[Branduil]

I never said criticizing 4e wasn't done, I said it was taboo; those that did it were reported immidiately, then beaten with rods and stones

Again, what board was this where this happened? It certainly wasn't this one.

 

[BryonD]

I wonder if book-keeping here isn't the wrong word. Counting Rage/day or Rage Points/day might be the same. The thing is you add a new decision point to the class. I Rage and add benefit X, instead of just "I rage".

And that is changing the Barbarian class a lot, in my opinion. Previously, is was a well-designed, fun class, very suitable for a beginning player, or someone that just wants some quick & easy fun evening with his character.
But now, it adds a new type of resource management to the class. Sure, you can ignrore that, but you know it's there, you know there is something you are not using of your character. And that changes how the class is perceived, and can lessen the enjoyment.

This really sounds insulting to a lot of gamers to me.
I mean, first you have linked "fun" to "quick and easy" and then you have presumed that rage points are to out there to be considered "quick and easy". And then you reiterate the concept by suggesting that they will be forced to change it and settle for less enjoyment.

The bar you are setting falls far far short of what I think of when I think about a typical gamer. It is sad to me.

I'm perfectly fine with the old Barbarian. It is a really good class.

Of course I'm also perfectly fine with Vancian spellcasting.

In both cases I'm not only ok with new ideas in addition to these standards I already like, I actively welcome new variations. My acceptance of Vancian magic does not remotely prevent me from also liking spell point systems, for example. I've never thought that spell points were anything at all like not sufficiently "quick and easy" enough. Heck, I wouldn't even call it a consideration, it was just presumed that spellpoints are still quick and easy. And the rage pool is even easier. So the whole complaint kinda floors me.
You are greatly lowering the bar and I think that you seem to be in tune with the new think in general. And I think that is not a good sign.

 

[Branduil]

I would probably not have played my first Barbarian if they used "rage points" instead.

It's easy enough to write down the number changes for Rage. Not as easy as flat bonuses would be, but relatively easy. Rage points add a level of complexity normally reserved for casters in 3.x.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

This really sounds insulting to a lot of gamers to me.
I mean, first you have linked "fun" to "quick and easy" and then you have presumed that rage points are to out there to be considered "quick and easy". And then you reiterate the concept by suggesting that they will be forced to change it and settle for less enjoyment.

I speak from my point of view. The Barbarian is a fun class, it's easy to get into, and part of its appeal there is not much to worry about. Sometimes, I like playing that kind of character, and when I do, I pick Barbarian, not Wizard, for a good reason.

But Rage Points change this to some extent. Suddenly, there are decisions I have to make that I just didn't have to make before. Suddenly, I have to count Rage Points per Day instead of just Rages per day. I have to look which powers I might want to pick up. Especially since I am not really the gamer that only likes the "simple" type of character, or wouldn't care about my characters performance.
The problem is it changes how the Barbarian is played. He used to be the straight-forward guy that runs into combat, rages and kills his enemies. And the way I played it was exactly like that, because the rules supported it. But if you add a mechanical subsystem that adds additional choices that can also affect my effectiveness, this changes - I am playing a raging, angry Barbarian, but I have to think about wether I spent a rage points to get some abilities. It's the same thematic problem of Power Attack - making a careless attack means deliberating which power attack penalty I have to take. I can ignore the intracities, but from a system mastery point of view, that's a bad decision. The theme and the way the theme is resolved just don't match.
It is not like this is not often a problem in RPGs - but why make it worse?

Yes, it is mostly a psychological thing - but that's a lot what gaming is all about. I want to "feel" like I am playing a Barbarian - if I have to make decisions whether I might want some extra energy damage, but a possibly shorter rage duration, this takes me out of feeling like the Barbarian.
Especially people that say that they are so much into the simulationist mindset and that don't like the split between "in-character" and "out-of-character" thoughts when running their character should feel this problem.

If the Barbarian class needs improvements because the Fighter has become way more effective, then pick something that fits the playstyle for the Barbarian more. More stuff that emphases recklessness, brutality, speed. Maybe give him a higher damage and attack bonus during rage at half hit points. Increase his speed during Rage. Grant him extra attacks when not making full attacks. Grant him a fear effect when charging an enemy. Do something that emphasizes the "charge your enemy and smash him to a bloody pulp while being turned into one yourself"-attitude of the Barbarian. Don't add a mini-game that takes me out of feeling a Barbarian!