Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Beyond 20th

[Matthias]

Eventually I will have to decide how to take my Pathfinder campaigns to epic levels. Players get attached to their characters...so far I have no PCs in a game higher than 5th level so there is time to figure these things out.

The "Beyond 20th Level" section of Gamemastering mentions several methods of handling epic-level adventuring in Pathfinder. I will likely not use the extended spell slot system of 10th level and above spell slots, nor the Scaling Powers beyond 20th for BAB, saves, etc.

I figure I'll simply stick with 20th level as a hard limit for any given core/base class. To my players I will describe the limit as "you know all there is to know, or what is possible, with this profession/discipline/etc." or "your training is complete. No more can I teach you".

With these things in mind, I would also place a given character's hard limit at 60th level, including core/base class levels, NPC class levels, and prestige class levels. (This would not include Hit Dice gained by other means such as racial levels in a monster type.) The reasoning here is once you have mastered three classes that are probably fairly diverse (a 'warrior' class, a 'spellcasting/psionic' class, and a 'specialist' class--e.g. the archetypal fighter/mage/thief), earning additional experience points (learning even more new stuff) has become more or less pointless and futile for you.

Essentially, I am thinking about drawing from 4th Edition's tiers concept but making the tiers 20 levels long instead of 10.

Additionally I would recharacterize multiclassing to be more than simply an optional path for a character to take, but as a natural progression or extension of of a character's breadth of knowledge, leaving multiclassing more or less mandatory if the player wants his PC to advance beyond 20th level at all.

It's only natural for a PC to progress from a dirty-gritty-fantasy style of adventuring (I gotta get rich as soon as possible while trying not to get killed) to a high fantasy lifestyle (I can afford to retire on this big pile of gold, but I still go adventuring for the fun of it) and progress further onward to potential immortality (the only thing I still fear is dying of old age, and even the gods have heard of me, and maybe even I can become one myself). These are natural "tiers" of gameplay that 4E can't claim to have cornered the market on... there is also the well-worn plot of going on "one last big adventure for old time's sake" to either finally make or break a PC, leading to that character's heroic demise saving the world, or their crossing the threshold of god-like greatness a.k.a. immortality as a fledgeling demigod, or both.

Ideally, I would like to see a PC pick up a secondary class level by 5th-10th character level. It seems rather awkward to me personally for a PC to max out in fighter, and only then begin to learn how to be a wizard from scratch, and expect to be rather useless in that role because the potent threats the party faces at epic levels could simply laugh at a 1st or 2nd level spell.

I want to think of some way to improve the incentive for picking up a secondary class class levels early enough so that a PC's primary and secondary levels are not too diverse, thereby making it easier for their different skill sets to synergize, without sacrificing too much high-end power.

Gestalt-classing is one option...

How about allowing a character to give up a character feat at certain levels to gain a free level in a secondary class instead? Essentially you are converting a feat slot into whatever amount of XP you need to achieve the next character level. This would only be allowed if you have never taken levels in the class except by this method (so multiclassing normally into a given class makes one ineligble to burn a feat slot for it at a later time).

A feat slot sacrifice would be allowed at the following character levels: 5th, 9th, 15th, 23rd, 33rd, 45th, and 59th.

 

[AWizardInDallas]

I was just wondering how often do you play that gets you to this high a level? It must be difficult to find epic level adventures?

 

[Matthias]

I want to have it all worked out beforehand (campaign is only 5th level). I never use modules. W usually end up playing between 1 and 3 nights a week after the boys are done with homework till bedtime. The players wanted to use the fast progression.

 

[DaveMage]

I like the idea of a class level cap (20th level is the highest for a class).

That said, however, I would like a feat at every level of 21+ so that you could still progress in your former class via feats (such as from the Epic Level Handbook). (Wizard 20 could get an extra spell slot, for example, at 21st level.)

You'd probably want to cap #attacks/round at 4 to keep combat time somewhat manageable.

 

[Matthias]

If I were to have 'epic feats' as a class of uber feats then it would be logical to have 'immortal class' feats. They would all have to be fairly spectacular I guess, probably on par with the salient divine abilities from Deities & Demigods, even if some of them require a minimum divine rank.

So I was thinking of doing something like this for the progression of characters beyond 20th level.


Achieving Epic Status

A PC who has achieved 20th level is on the verge of becoming an epic-level mortal, beings who have risen above their adventuring brethren and excelled at the art. All great mortal heroes achieved epic level at one time or another. However, becoming epic status is is not simply a matter of earning enough experience to advance to 21st level; by tradition instituted by the gods, a mortal must take on for themselves a difficult quest or mission to prove their worth in order to achieve epic level.

There is no character level minimum for taking on an epic-level quest, though by convention only characters of at least 15th level should consider attempting such a monumental endeavor. A quest that's realistically achievable by a party of adventurers of less than 20th level is no epic quest at all.

There is no minimum number of full members who desire epic status (Companions) for a questing party, although by tradition no more than seven Companions can partake in a single quest and all of them be eligible for epic status. (Cohorts, followers, guides, and other assistants are not included in this number unless they are at least 15th level and accompany the party for more than half the duration of the quest.) A questing party of more than five must be willing to face fantastically difficult challenges to prove themselves collectively worthy of epic status. An epic-level quest need not be tackled alone, but each companion must carry their share of the burden. (Cohorts and followers, though they might be high-level themselves and active participants, are not required to share in the risk, and indeed are expected to stay in the background.)

An epic quest must involve the successful completion of at least one CR 21+ encounter per Companion in the party, and all Companions must be present and actively involved for the majority of the quest, although breaks and brief side-quests can be taken individually or as a group as the need requires. Companions slain along the way should be raised from the dead expeditiously, and should miss no significant portions of the great adventure to avoid disqualification. (This may mean that the party may need to turn aside from their primary mission for some time, perhaps days or even months, in order to arrange for the resurrection of their fallen comrade.)

There is no time limit on the completion of an epic quest, but no quest worthy of granting epic status should take less than a month or two from start to finish. It is not unheard of for some idealistic quests to take months or even years to accomplish.

From the time a quester starts on their quest to the moment they accompish their quest, the experience earned is delayed (given that they are maxed out at 20th character level). A character may advance up to 20th level while pursuing an epic-level quest, up to amount of experience points needed for 20th level--XP beyond that point is held in abeyance until the completion of the quest.

Henchmen and followers can earn experience during an epic quest, even to the point of achieving 20th level themselves--but unless they were present for the beginning of the great adventure and the great majority of the parts in between, they cannot become eligible for advancement to epic status with the successful completion of the current quest. They must go on their own quest (which may involve the occasional aid of their master, under the usual stipulations).

Questers also cannot receive significant or extensive aid from another epic, immortal, or divine being during the quest or in preparation for it. (There are limited exceptions, such as gifts of non-epic gear, modest amounts of treasure, the granting of spells, the assistance of servants loyal to the benefactor, and the like.) But the chief rule here is that the questers must be willing and able to do all the hard work themselves. No quester is allowed to achieve epic status with the intervention of a powerful epic-status mentor or deific parent; it just doesn't work that way.

The quest having been achieved, experience earned is applied to all qualified Companions, who are then advanced to 21st level or beyond (up to a maximum of 40th level) according to the experience points they earned during the quest.

In rare cases, a Companion may achieve epic status posthumously at the completion of the quest if their death was sufficiently heroic, even if it only indirectly served the purpose of completing the quest. For example: being slain in the defense of one's fellow questers at a critical moment; dying to preserve an entire city of innocents from total destruction; (in the case of evil characters); being killed in the accomplishment of some terrible ignominious deed that significantly furthered the interests of an evil deity.

Once achieved, not even divine decree can revoke epic status, even if obtained by trickery or deception. (Even godhood has been achieved by such means.) Negative levels sustained do not affect epic status. It is considered by most that epic status is a thing of destiny. If it is the fate of a mortal to ascend even to godhood, it cannot be stopped or reversed, if the powers of fate have willed it to be so.

Epic characters gain the following benefits:
* Epic characters retain the ability to raise an ability score by one point every fourth character level and to earn an additional character feat at every odd-numbered character level.
* Epic characters are able to gain levels in any class which they have not already "maxed out" (20th level for a core or base class, or 5th or 10th level for most prestige classes), up to a maximum of 40th character level.
* Any class an epic character had previously gained a level in prior to 21st level is considered a favored class. Characters who had previously taken the Eclectic feat (APG 158) may choose an additional class beyond these to be a favored class.
* Epic characters may continue to improve their trained skills beyond 20 ranks. Epic characters are not limited by their character level in the number of ranks allowed for a given skill.
* Epic characters are able to learn epic feats, create epic-level magic items, and take levels in epic prestige classes.


Achieving Immortal Status

Once a PC has reached 40th level, they must find some way to achieve immortal status. Ordinarily, mortals with epic status cannot progress past 40th level (and you must have epic status before you can even reach 40th level). Still, this metaphysical barrier can be surmounted, and the end result is the acquisition of a divine rank of zero. (For more information on divine rank, see /Deities and Demigods/ by Wizards of the Coast.)

The most common methods of achieving immortal status are as follows.

(1) Be born to a being of divine rank greater than zero. Having a deity as a grandparent or distant relative is not enough, and to have a deity for a parent grants one only the potential for divinity. The character must still progress through the epic levels of 21st-40th level. Beyond this, there is no additional barrier to advancing beyond 40th level. Once the character has earned enough XP to reach 41st level, he or she becomes immortal automatically and inherits a divine rank of zero.

(2) Petition a deity for divine status in exchange for the accomplishing some great quest or service on the deity's behalf. This is similar in nature to the quest for achieving epic level, but its scope, overall difficulty, and individual challenges are fittingly more broad and more severe. As quests of this nature may sometimes take decades or centuries to accomplish, the deity that is willing to entertain the deal will usually confer a divine rank of zero on the mortal from the start (usually by visitation by an avatar), lifting the natural barriers of old age and infirmity that may interfere with their new servant's obligations and activities--and also putting the adventurer on the hook to fulfill their part of the bargain.

(3) Be formally "adopted" by a deity into his or her divine family. Deities may have hundreds or thousands of adopted children whom they have chosen to embrace as their own. Every deity has their own ritual of deific adoption, but in most instances it is a solemn event taking place at a temple or holy site dedicated to the deity and which involves the deity in avatar form conferring the divine rank by touch.

A divine adoption cannot be under false pretenses, as a deity who finds themselves tricked into the unwitting adoption of a mortal they otherwise would not embrace can immediately disown that mortal, stripping the offender of divine rank on the spot (no matter the distance or their location on a different plane of existence) and imposing a permanent level drain for every character level possessed beyond 40th level. This kind of level drain is instantaneous and irreversible by any means except by direct intervention by a deity, whether the one offended or some other god or goddess.

(4) Drink a vial of nectar of a still-living plant from a garden or inner sanctum of a deity's extraplanar home. Deities are exceedingly fickle about whom they permit to enter their extraplanar territories, and it is virtually impossible to trespass upon the godly realm of a hostile god or goddess without an exceptionally powerful escort. This method will confer a divine rank of zero on the imbiber one round after the drink has been fully consumed.

(5) Eat a meal prepared with the meat of a Celestial, Fiendish, Axiomatic, or Anarchic animal native to the outer planes. The animal must be ritually slain, its meat blessed by a cleric of similar alignment to the animal's native plane, and the meal prepared in a special way which preserves the animal's divine essence. This method will confer a divine rank of zero on the consumer one round after the last bite of the meal has been eaten.

(6) Slay an avatar of a deity and successfully perform a certain epic spell involving yourself and the avatar's remains. This ritual (which must be started no later than one hour after the avatar's demise) captures the divine essence still lingering in the corpse and transfers it to you. The ritual takes an hour to perform and requires costly material components worth more than 200,000 gp. The divine rank of zero takes effect one minute after the completion of the ritual. It is also quite likely that the offended deity will desire to carry out swift vengeance.

Naturally, it is entirely at the deity's discretion what sort of service and expectations will be levied on the mortal and the conditions under which the mission will be held accomplished, and a particularly cruel or indifferent deity may decide to withhold some particularly gruesome details of the mortal's necessary work until after the deal has been struck. Many deities will also exactingly precise in the application and interpretation of the specific conditions that must be met for the new godling's term of service to be fulfilled.

However, this is one of the few instances where even a manipulative malevolent deity can be fairly trusted not to blatantly violate a contract. Though unknown to mortals, there are unspoken protocols among the gods concerning the handling and manipulation of divine essence. Granting mortals divine status is taken extremely seriously by the gods, as deities are loathe to the notion of raising up new gods and goddesses willy-nilly and would consider such a phenomenon a dire threat to their existing power base. It is not out of the question for even the benevolent deities to go to war against a deity who threatened to begin the proliferation of new godlings. Therefore, any agreements involving the sharing of divine essence carry significant penalties to a deity's prestige within the pantheon if those agreements are broken. This helps reinforce the seriousness of such agreements among the divine community, and few deities will readily enter into agreements concerning mortal ascension.

Immortal characters retain all epic-level benefits, change to the Outsider creature type (and gains the Native subtype unless granted divine status by one of the first three methods described above), and gain all benefits of having a divine rank of zero as per /Deities and Demigods/ by Wizards of the Coast.

 

[Dingo333]

Just gonna throw you some curve balls that might derail your plans, or, at least need to be thought about.

Say I join this group, knowing we will be hitting levels of epic+.

I bring to the table a magus/witch/wizard (low level in each at the moment as the group is say 6). Fast forward 14 levels. The classes I picked all have 1 thing exactly in common, in fact, they all stack towards it. A familiar. I am also going to take improved familiar and get a silvanshee (why? because I love that familiar). Now, we take our 21st level, What about my familiar. Effectively he is the familiar of a level 21 wizard (all 3 classes say they stack with each other, you cant divide it up). To complicate this more, that little cat is effectively a 21st level paladin in terms of lay on hands..... (something your rules don't allow) There is no mention of "to a maximum of..." in the lay on hands ability so in theory he is just going to keep improving but how would you rule this.

Next up.

I bring to the table this time a summoner. From level 1-15 I stay solo summoner because nothing is going to improve my eidolon except that and it has been outshining the fighter in the group since day 1 when it did 3 bite attacks vs his 1 sword swing. Now the fighter and it are pretty even in combat (eidolon is just barely outshining, he still has more attacks, reach and better damage, but his to hit, AC and HP have lagged far behind). You tell me I need to multiclass soon. Advance 5 levels. My eidolon is sitting back with the druid and ranger's companions now. He used to be so bada$$ but now he barely hits anything and his damage is behind too. He is effectively a level 12 guy chasing after these awesome epic people. Even the cohorts have surpassed him in HD.

Third one.

Level 30, even split between inquisitor(skill class), magus(magic class) and paladin(combat class). This guy is the TANK. Seriously. Get a modern tank to shoot at him and it will bounce of his AC. How much AC? 10+ +6 mithral chainshirt(a total of +10) + A dex of 24 to take advantage of mithral chainshirt + combat expertise (+6) + amulet of natural armor (+5) + ring of protection (+5) + Staff magus ability (quarterstaff enhancement added as shield bonus total: +11) + protection judgment (+3) + ioun stone +1. Total AC 58. Could be 60 with bane, depending on how you rule that. 4 levels, AC of 62-64 again, bane dependant. This is level 30 mind you. At 50, you could have AC 70+ and your to hit with the quarter staff.... +35 without STR (+26 on BaB, +11 enhancement, -2 spell combat)

Now, you are saying I can't have this active indefinatly. You are almost right. With endurance (pick it up somewhere) I can sleep easily in the armor. The combat expertise, surprise round, flat footed anyway. Judgement and staff bonus. Swift to burn pool point then standard to divine bond the staff, move into melee. Next turn, swift, activate judgment, full attack with the 4 attacks and drop a spell. Buff, blast, does it matter? first foe is majorly hurt (4 attacks hit = 4d6+44+4xstr+spell effect, assuming no smite or bane, those come in the next couple rounds)

Just some problems you could have. They are, a shared class ability becoming super powerful, a unique class ability that loses all its effectiveness and a power gamer with AC that is literary a tank. Just curious how you would handle them

 

[Matthias]

Regarding numbers 1 and 3, I don't have a problem with optimized characters, really. Epic and immortal characters are supposed to be uber. That's what those levels are for. They are to 20th level characters what 20th level characters are to 5th and 10th level characters. Not every campaign needs to take the uber-ness that far, of course.

It seems to me that optimized characters tend to have glaring weaknesses which can take them down a peg if the GM so desires. Sure, it may be possible to build a truly unstoppable character even "by the rules" and with conveniently high rolls for initial ability scores. I don't have to give the players everything they want and, in the end, I can make up some monster or quasi-deity with arbitrarily powerful stats that can take on the entire party and steamroll them, if I wanted to.

But my philosophy is that, in the end, the PCs are meant to win. It is my job not to make it too easy (and therefore boring and a waste of time) nor too difficult (and therefore unfulfilling and un-fun). Within that, it's up to me to hand-pick the opponents the PCs fight and I (mostly) have control over what magic items they are able to acquire, assuming they don't delve into Item Creation feats or convince another player in the game to build magic items for them. There isn't a lot to be done about class synergy after the fact other than making up a (perhaps counter-intuitive) house rule or clarification to nerf a golden hammer that a player has created.

I don't like to take away a player's new toy even if it's proving pretty effective against the existing challenges I've been creating to send against the PCs. (Unless it is the result of a misinterpretation of a rule on my, their, or our part, in which case I will readily reverse the situation and set it right.) To some extent players should be able to reap the benefits of their creative thinking so long as it's not at the expense of another player's enjoyment of the game. This is like the historical meme of someone acquiring a powerful tool or weapon or ability and coming to rely on it so much that they fail to consider the consequences of its sudden failure or loss, and this is just one way to keep the game from being dominated by this one aspect of a single PC in the group. Diverse challenges adjusted for the overall effectiveness of a party (by virtue of its players' intelligence and ingenuity) is the cornerstone of running an enjoyable game, even if the PCs are meant to win in the end. This being considered, it's a mistake to feel honor-bound to stick strictly to the CR system when creating challenges. Especially past the middle levels, a party's effective level can be more influenced by the skill of the players than by the rules-as-written abilities wielded by the PCs.

There isn't really much to be done about "obsolete" class abilities like familiars. But then, every ability has its own proper time and place, and abilities go obsolete even by the standard rules. How much use can you get out of being able to cast Cure Light Wounds when you can cook up Heal spells on the field like it's popcorn? No one ever bikes to work if they can afford the gas to drive there, unless they just want the exercise. The bicycle gets repurposed from being a mode of transportation to a method of exercise. The obsolesced eidolon will simply have to find another purpose in life besides being a combat machine to help take on this session's random monster of the week. (Not that I could tell you what that purpose would be, since I have not studied Summoner in detail yet.)