Pathfinder News From GAMA

News from the GAMA trade show, as reported by the (excellent) Know Direction podcast: Return to a classic Adventure Path with Curse of the Crimson Throne, one of Paizo’s most popular campaigns! The city of Korvosa is in chaos, and her new queen may well be the source–can a ragtag group of heroes stand before the might of one of Golarion’s most nefarious villains? This immense book has everything you need to run an entire full-length campaign covering months and months of play!

• Updates the classic Adventure Path to the Pathfinder RPG rules for the first time.
• Explore expanded adventures, including a brand new mission written by Paizo’s Creative Director, James Jacobs, that sends the heroes into a perilous dungeon run by the queen’s infamous Gray Maidens!
• Features dozens of evocative illustrations of classic characters.
• Updated rules for monsters, magic items, and character options, some old, some new.
• Retail Price: $49.99

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The two best-selling Pathfinder RPG hardcovers of all time come to paperback at least in brand-new “Pocket Editions” set for a Fall 2016 release!

• Affordable price significantly lowers Pathfinder’s cost barrier to entry.
• Perfect for use with Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
• Exactly the same content as the hardcover editions, at a new low price!
• Core Rulebook Retail Price: $24.99
• Bestiary Retail Price: $19.99

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Credit for the pictures goes to the Uncle’s Games Twitter page.

 

[ExoKnight]

Awesome! Can't wait for Curse of the Crimson Throne hardcover!

 

[Jester David]

Jester, in every "rate the APs" thread I've ever seen (anywhere), Curse of the Crimson Throne is always #1 or #2, with only Kingmaker giving it a run for its money. If I had to wager a guess its about 60/40 split between those two respectfully for the top spot. Skull and Shackles is actually a decent bit more divisive, at about the #4-#5 range (some complaints I've seen people mention are the pressgang opener and the general unheroic leanings of the campaign). Given Curse is an extremely popular AP that is over half sold out that can also be updated and converted, I'd actually call it a "no-brainer".

Rate the AP threads are reviews, which are handy but mean CotCT it good but also that it's been played. None of those people rating APs are reliable consumers of such a compilation because they already have it since they can rate it. Some of them might buy it again (since they liked it and there's no conversion needed), but many will not (since they might rather run something new and if they have a book from 2007 they likely have few problems converting mechanics).

I haven't seen CotCT come up nearly as often on the "what should I run?" Threads, which is the real audience for this book. Even before the first couple volumes sold out (which took several years, opposed to S&S and KM). The hook doesn't seem to grip people as much; the concept might be harder to sell than just "East meets West", "demon invasion", "sandbox kingdom building", or "pirates". Or even "genie war". Especially now that Hell's Rebels has stolen a little of its rebellion and urban adventure thunder.
Perhaps the lesser interest is because it's 3.5e and a collected edition will shoot it to the top of those lists.

We'll see I guess… In situations like this I love to be proven wrong.

I'd expect a "Second Darkness" hardcover announced either next year or the year after. Though I'll be surprised if it's significantly 'fixed'.

They did RotRL back in 2012. And CotCT is not coming out in late 2016. At that rate, Second Darkness would be 2020. Unless they're really picking up the pace.

Of course, you can snag all of Second Darkness for $60 (plus S+H), so a big collector's edition feels less necessary.

Assuming we don't see PF 2.0 before then

The Paizo staff are pretty adamant that's not on the table. But anything other than a flat denial would be confirmation so...
Pathfinder 2.0/ Pathfinder Revised. I really don't see that going over well. Pathfinder started because fans thought 3e still had legs and wanted to keep using all the 3e content they'd bought but hadn't used yet. And now Paizo has released more Pathfinder RPG content than WotC released for 3e. There'll be a LOT of people unwilling to switch. Retaining backwards compatibility would be an interesting goal, but doing that for 3e was what kept so many legacy problems in PF to begin with.

And that's without getting into the tone of a revision. Unlike D&D which at least has a legacy to uphold, there's no clear direction for Pathfinder.
Whenever I hear unhappy Pathfinder fans talking about fixes I'm reminded of similar complaints from my 3.5e days on the WotC boards, and their "fixes" often sound a lot like 4e. It's unclear if they should try and emulate the simplicity of 5e or double down on complexity and try and attract that fanbase and pulling in the D&D fans unsatisfied with 5e? They could retain the 3e/D&D-isms or they could go in an entirely different direction, eschewing classes, changing ability scores, and generally slaughtering sacred cows in a way that D&D cannot.

 

[Jester David]

When I think about them repackaging the Core Rulebook as a cheaper entry level option, a big single-volume book seems like an odd choice.

If they're doing the reprint route, splitting the book into 2-3 volumes would make sense to me.
You could easily have a Races & Classes book with everything needed to make a character, a Spellbook that has all the spells, and a Combat & Adventuring book that has all the rules for the game. (Things like skills could be included in both the first and third). Especially since one of the reasons the Core Rulebook is hard on new people isn't the price, but the size and intimidation factor.
So someone new to playing but in a group might just pick up the first and make a character without spells, or the first two if rolling a spellcaster. And people running can grab all three. But anyone running a spellcaster can just grab the spellbook for an easy to carry and reference book, and anyone playing can just have the Combat book to reference those rules. And you wouldn't have to worry about the binding in a 600+ page softcover book.

But that'd be more expensive I imagine since they'd have to redo the index, page numbers, and some layout. And they'd need a couple new covers. Rather than just ship the existing files to the printer and say "this, but in softcover".

 

[delericho]

The Paizo staff are pretty adamant that's not on the table. But anything other than a flat denial would be confirmation so...

Pathfinder 2.0/ Pathfinder Revised. I really don't see that going over well.

The issues you raise are all good ones, but there comes a point where Paizo just can't layer more stuff on top of the framework - how many new books can they publish that people will buy in sufficient numbers? Eventually, Paizo either need a new edition, they need a new game that they can get people to buy into in the same sort of numbers, or they need to shut up shop. And I don't see two of those as remotely likely, so...

 

[Jiggawatts]

I'd be over the moon if they just chopped off the Gamemaster section of the Core Rulebook and sold a version of it as just a standard hardcover Players Handbook. 200ish less pages would make that book much more wieldable and user friendly. The size of the Core Rulebook has been one of my least liked things about Pathfinder since the beginning.

 

[Jester David]

The issues you raise are all good ones, but there comes a point where Paizo just can't layer more stuff on top of the framework - how many new books can they publish that people will buy in sufficient numbers? Eventually, Paizo either need a new edition, they need a new game that they can get people to buy into in the same sort of numbers, or they need to shut up shop. And I don't see two of those as remotely likely, so...

Palladium would disagree, as they've been layering new options onto the same system since the early 1980s.

There's also the third option: switch from new generic crunch options to advice and flavour/tone changes for campaigns. Like Horror Adventures, which is a campaign themebook and doesn't require new classes, archetypes, etc.
They can sustain the game for quite a while they also do stuff like adventures and campaign setting material. Given they're not WotC and expect smaller profits, they can get buy on fewer sales. Especially since they can sell directly and pocket a larger share of the profits.

And the longer Paizo can sustain themselves on different flavours of adventuring the more people will work through the crunch already released and the greater percentage that will be willing to transition to a revised Pathfinder, and the more time they have to find the largest niche Pathfinder Revised needs to fill in the gaming industry.
Throw in a long playtest period to give people time to wind down and use up content and they're good.

 

[scourge]

Hands down, this is my favorite AP from Paizo. I'm ecstatic they're making it into a hardback.

 

[DaveMage]

No thanks to Pathfinder 2.0. I'd rather they do Pathfinder Unchained 2 if they want to suggest any changes to the base game.

Now, I do think there could be improvements to the system, but not so much that I'd want to spend the money for a whole new edition.

I think my perfect game lies somewhere between Pathfinder and 5E. Maybe I'll write it some day.

 

[delericho]

Palladium would disagree, as they've been layering new options onto the same system since the early 1980s.

With all due respect to Palladium, they're not in quite the same league as Paizo.

There's also the third option:

Third option? But I gave three!

switch from new generic crunch options to advice and flavour/tone changes for campaigns. Like Horror Adventures, which is a campaign themebook and doesn't require new classes, archetypes, etc.

Although, actually... that still just more stuff layered on top. And, sure, it's somewhat orthogonal to what has gone before, but like "Mthyic Adventures" it's also likely to be of fairly niche interest. I'm not sure how long even that's sustainable.

And the longer Paizo can sustain themselves on different flavours of adventuring the more people will work through the crunch already released and the greater percentage that will be willing to transition to a revised Pathfinder...

Yeah, that's certainly true. Eventually, I'm sure we'll see a PF2, but I'm not going to make a prediction as to whether that's 2017, 2020, 2025, or beyond.

 

[Jabborwacky]

The issues you raise are all good ones, but there comes a point where Paizo just can't layer more stuff on top of the framework - how many new books can they publish that people will buy in sufficient numbers? Eventually, Paizo either need a new edition, they need a new game that they can get people to buy into in the same sort of numbers, or they need to shut up shop. And I don't see two of those as remotely likely, so...

I remember playing a Pathfinder game when it first came out and being alright with it. I tried playing a game of it recently and couldn't make a single character that didn't conflict in some way with the kind of campaign my GM was conducting. I'd normally say it's the GMs responsibility to make sure a new player knows what's allowed in the game, but the number of options have buried the core experience.