Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

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But would also involve doing business with folks that I would not want to have anything to do with - I consider them hypocrites who are both two faced and arrogant. No thank you, I'd rather see them rot.

Fair enough.

Save for the Army Builder incident which I have not seen them repeat, they have had excellent customer service and been quite responsive to various support requests and such. But I realize that sometimes something a company does gets them on a person's personal blacklist, so I can understand that!

Paying piecemeal for each individual data set is spreading the cost out over a greater time than $10 per month is? The entire point of a subscription is that you're spreading the cost out.

Oh yeah, a subscription spreads the cost out similar to the way I pick up Hero Lab options. But with Hero Lab if I don't feel like paying for a few months I still have full access to the material I already paid for. I've been on Hero Lab for over a year now and only had need to buy the core package and the APG to meet my gaming needs. Less than a sub cost and I've been able to use the tool the entire time.

I understand some would rather just pay a subscription fee and I don't begrudge them that. That doesn't really work for me. Hero Lab's business model does not make them an inferior product - simply another alternative for people who do not like the subscription style of access to content.

Dannager said:
Convenience.

I haven't seen anything that DDI brings to the table that I can't get for Pathfinder through various tools available on the Internet. I wouldn't even call it that inconvenient, though I can see how some people might. Luckily we both have choices that fit our preferred mode of access which is awesome! My preferences do not make your preferences inferior - simply different. But I think you and I have covered a lot of this in this very thread already, so I will stop there.
 

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That depends. How many more Pathfinder supplements do you think will come out over the next 13 months, and how much do you think those will cost to add? We're at $120 already, and Pathfinder's already been out for two years. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect about another $50-60 worth of data sets in thirteen months' time.

They'll probably catch up to each other at a little past the two-year mark. Not counting the rest of DDI, of course.

Wait, so I can get all the rules released for Pathfinder over a 2 year period for $120... DDI costs $10 a month... over a two year period, that's $200 to keep up with for two years... or $140 if you go with a yearly subscription... and I also don't have to pay for information or data I don't want or use. Also add to all this the fact that the program is also a Monster Builder (since they work on the same rules as PC's) and I think it's a better deal overall than DDI. But that's just me.

Edit: Oh, yeah and I own it so I can keep it even when a new edition comes out.
 

As someone who doesn't own or use the DDI or Hero Builder but as a outsider. I would say with how fast Paizo comes out with Pathfinder stuff that the DDI is the better deal money wise. For one you get extra stuff like the mags etc with the subscription. Where as Hero Builder you only get the books you buy.

With that said though I would still choose Hero Builder if I had a choice in the two. For the simple reason I know if anything where to happen to either company I would still have Hero Builder and all the products I bought for it. Where as if WotC for some reason ever retired 4e or moved on to 5e or what ever and stopped the DDI it would just be gone.

But I have a issue with what I see as renting software. I dislike the trend in computer games where you buy a offline solo play game, but the updater MAKES you log onto the internet to check your files before it lets you play. Which means if the company ever goes out of business your game won't work anymore. I know not the same thing as the DDI as it is free with a subscription, was just pointing out why I dislike that kind of service.

And yes i am aware that MMO's and some other games are designed that way. The DDI is the better service for the price, it would just bug me that I am renting it.
 

Wait, so I can get all the rules released for Pathfinder over a 2 year period for $120... DDI costs $10 a month... over a two year period, that's $200 to keep up with for two years... or $140 if you go with a yearly subscription... and I also don't have to pay for information or data I don't want or use. Also add to all this the fact that the program is also a Monster Builder (since they work on the same rules as PC's) and I think it's a better deal overall than DDI. But that's just me.

Edit: Oh, yeah and I own it so I can keep it even when a new edition comes out.

Don't forget t hat there is a free competitor chomping at their heals.
 

Which means if the company ever goes out of business your game won't work anymore. I know not the same thing as the DDI as it is free with a subscription, was just pointing out why I dislike that kind of service.

And yes i am aware that MMO's and some other games are designed that way.

A good argument for tabletop RPGs over MMOs if you have to make a choice.
 

Wait, so I can get all the rules released for Pathfinder over a 2 year period for $120... DDI costs $10 a month... over a two year period, that's $200 to keep up with for two years... or $140 if you go with a yearly subscription... and I also don't have to pay for information or data I don't want or use. Also add to all this the fact that the program is also a Monster Builder (since they work on the same rules as PC's) and I think it's a better deal overall than DDI. But that's just me.

Edit: Oh, yeah and I own it so I can keep it even when a new edition comes out.

The only packages that I picked up for HERO LAB were Bestiary 1 & 2 and the APG. I'm running COTCT rebuilding NPC's and monsters from 3.5 to Pathfinder and HERO LAB is a tremendous time saver. So for me too it is well worth the money.
 

In DDI

I have to pay ten bucks if I want to update my character sheet, without even benefitting nor being interested in any rules updates or new feats or powers. Those are "value added", but 10 bucks a month to be able to access my own character stored on a server somewhere is MMO cash cow mentality, and I work for an MMO company!!

First time I made a Pathfinder character it took my a couple hours, and I haven't wanted to nor looked at the options since, yet had more fun with the character since by level 5, he was more versatile and could do more awe-inspiring things than any 4e character I've seen can.

About the builder, DDI OCB is a hulking, piece of GARBAGE. I write software and have worked for many large, multinational gaming corporations and I can tell you, if we'd released stuff like that, people would have lost their jobs. (and sometimes did).

I'd rather pay once for a builder and play a game for 5 years, than pay for rules updates no one at my gaming table thinks is necessary and is more disruptive than anything. Having to re-spec your character 3 times per tier because of nerfs is bad enough, but paying for the privilege is the domain of Sheepsville.

Unfortunately, as proficient as I am in rolling up characters on paper in other games with less of a mess of intricate feat, power, and class features, in 4e I wouldn't even bother. Hence I am a DDI subscriber, by necessity and not by choice. My books are near useless due to all the errata.

I have another group playing AD&D for fifteen years now and they use their PHBs all the time. There is no D&D book EVER that has gotten more use than the 2nd ed PHB, IMO. For 30 bucks. When's the last time you looked up the PHB? Half the stuff in there is obsolete or nerfed or upgraded...you can't trust the book and hence you are forced to keep at the bleeding edge. When one guy shows up at your gaming table with a "rolled stat" PC using non-errataed stuff from a PHB he bought just to play your game, then another shows up with Essentials feats and properly re-specced and tweaked items, you have to tell the n00b he needs to fix his character.

"But can't we just play? I rolled it up according to the Rules"...oh wait...PHB is no longer a valid rules source. What will happen when DDI goes offline (and it will eventually!) ? PHB time! Or, CBOffline + hacks time. This is why I like to own my characters. I don't play an MMO after having spent HUNDREDS of dollars on books, and then when the company drops the game and it disappears, my books are useless now?

Heck no....I don't like to live in Chumpsvile, Population : Whatever the DDI subscriber base is (including me). Unfortunately there is no reasonable way to build a 4e character without a generator, without spending HUGE amounts of time and money. (money, that, once you have the books you need, you will regret because a month after they are published they errata all the good powers into oblivion...because they didn't playtest it properly, or, realistically, because they wanted to sell more books and juicy powers = more sales. Errata comes after you bought the book already, dummy).

e.g. the Snarling Wolf Stance from MP2, anyone remember that one? Not one month after MP2 came out they nerfed it, in the same way they nerfed SCS. So I paid for a book, then used the power once, then paid for DDI to have the power on my sheet, and my cost was 50 bucks and a mediocre power added to my sheet. 95% of the material in any given book is useless. All I need are the things I want equipped on my guy. I can pencil that feat into a free generator and don't see why I should pay for the privilege of playtesting published material with my hard-earned money.

SWS was released knowing full well they would nerf it the next day, I will bet you any money. Suckers like me fell for it. That was the last book other than Dark Sun. I can't even find any players who want to play Dark Sun...they're all playing other RPG systems.
 


About the builder, DDI OCB is a hulking, piece of GARBAGE.

I think it works great and is more stable (and recoverable) than the original character builder.

Having to re-spec your character 3 times per tier because of nerfs is bad enough, but paying for the privilege is the domain of Sheepsville.

You're not paying for the privilege of tweaking your character to avoid nerfs.

Also, if you are forced to "re-spec" your character 3 times per tier because you keep getting hit with the nerf bat, you probably deserved it. I've never played a character that had to be significantly altered more than twice, and I make some ridiculous stuff. I can only imagine the sort of monster you must have created.
 
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Only if you find the argument that paying for a renewable near-term license to use a piece of software is bad to be persuasive.

I'm not saying that paying the license is bad for all situations. But my PF Core book will be available for many years to come, long after the equivalent money I would have spent on an MMO subscription has expired. I may have some fun playing on the MMO for that set time, but I'll continue to have fun playing with PF long after that and without an ongoing fee. And that will factor into my decision regarding what to invest in - a tabletop RPG or MMO.
 

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