Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder page count change

Note that you can have a level cap and not make the game finite. If we do an epic level expansion to Pathfinder RPG that expands the level range from 21st to 40th, and design that expansion so that at 21st level you're fighting dragons and at 40th level you're becoming a deity (or something like that), we can THEN do an expansion even later that goes from level 41st to 60th, for example, where your characters play deities ascending in power. And so on.

I'm OK with that - as long as there is no final limit. Granted, from an adventure design (publisher) point of view, you likely have to set limits. That said, I think it's important to create a system whereby (at some point) a DM can either end the campaign (as there are no other published adventures) or at least has the tools to take over and homebrew the campaign.

To be clear, I'm not saying a publisher should be expected to support the game to infinity - just make it so that a creative DM can continue to run a game if he or she chooses.
 

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I'm OK with that - as long as there is no final limit.

Of course... if we never publish a 21st-40th level book... then level 20 does sort of become the limit. And unless there's enough demand for an epic book, we won't print it. Despite the vocal support epic level gets (and I am part of that group who likes epic level), the overall picture of how popular epic level play is has traditionally been pretty dismal.

Over the past several years I've been at Paizo, I've seen epic level content sell less. I've seen epic level content inspire far fewer authors to submit content for it. And the Epic Level portion of the Beta playtest has been far and above the least-participated in... at least, as far as our messageboards can tell.

As a result, while I suspect we'll eventually do some sort of Epic book, I doubt we'll support epic-level play that much, since doing so is more complex and less rewarding than supporting the part of the game that the vast majority of gamers prefer to play.

One thing I can guarantee we WON'T do, though, is say that 20th's the limit and you can't go higher. Pathfinder RPG is based on the OGL, and the OGL supports epic level play with the epic level rules SRD, and you'll be able to use those rules with PF RPG, at the very minimum. That does mean that GMs who run epic content will be forced to do more conversions and work on their own... not that I suspect that's something GMs who prefer epic content necessarily think of as a bad thing.
 

Of course... if we never publish a 21st-40th level book... then level 20 does sort of become the limit. And unless there's enough demand for an epic book, we won't print it. Despite the vocal support epic level gets (and I am part of that group who likes epic level), the overall picture of how popular epic level play is has traditionally been pretty dismal.
It could be just because Epic Level rules... suck. ;)

But I think the reason is that people just don't usually run campaigns lasting long enough. Most start at a lower levels (if not 1st, then 3rd or 5th) and can get only so far because the group scatters, the DM loses interest in his campaign, or the players just wants to try something different.
Some people will still play till epic levels - some might even start a campaign at epic levels, but it's just rarer.

A reason for that is because: What to do up there? Really, what kind of stories can you tell if everyone involved has demigood or god-like powers?
If you are still just looting dungeons, what's the point? But how good are you at epic level politics or world changing?
You are no longer someone that just "reacts" to stuff - you have to become active. As Mr.Morden asks: "What do you want"?
I think that is a kind of change of play that is harder to fathom then just moving from killing goblins to killing dragons to killing demons to killing gods. What do you do when you're a king, what do you do when you're a demigod or a god?

It's also something D&D worlds seem to be generally bad at. Most gods seem passive. Some evil gods might plot stuff, but usually it's just their followers doing thing (like getting their god out of imprisoment). There is no "role model" for what epic creatures do. That top tier of "gods" is often presented as the stable and static campaign background. But players are not campaign background, they are foreground.

Jürgen Hubert mentioned this on this board and his blog - his experiences with Exalted suggest that its the players that drive everything. They must have a goal. They must change the world, and as epic individuals, they must change it fundamentally. It's not just founding a kingdom (which would already be pretty cool for a "normal" campaign), it might be about changing the fundamental rules of the world, shattering cosmology or at least the hierarchy of gods.

It is a change both for players and DMs. The DM is used to have a more or less stable background. He is in control of the world, but he has to give up a lot more control then usual. The players on the other hand, they have to take matters in their own hand. Not everyone is used to that, especially not to that degree.

Of course, these are all generalizations. There are players and DMs accustomed to such scenarios.
But if we look at the game materials - especially modules - that is out there, there is little that supports it. Primarily of course because if it's the players that drive the plot, a module is less useful. You'd need something like a "ideas of how players can shake up a campaign world and how you help them do it".

But even with such materials it remains to be seen if there are enough people interested in it. (I know that earlier D&D games had rules for stuff like fiefdoms and similar aspects that went well beyond 3E style Leadership feat. But I don't know how much of it was actually used.)
If not, it might be better to find a different type of "advancement" at some point. Instead of getting tougher, stronger and faster, characters might just get more versatile. Fighters don't become better Fighters at some point, they branch out and become Wizards. Wizards don't get more powerful spells, but they find religion.
 


Of course... if we never publish a 21st-40th level book... then level 20 does sort of become the limit. And unless there's enough demand for an epic book, we won't print it. Despite the vocal support epic level gets (and I am part of that group who likes epic level), the overall picture of how popular epic level play is has traditionally been pretty dismal.

Over the past several years I've been at Paizo, I've seen epic level content sell less. I've seen epic level content inspire far fewer authors to submit content for it. And the Epic Level portion of the Beta playtest has been far and above the least-participated in... at least, as far as our messageboards can tell.

As a result, while I suspect we'll eventually do some sort of Epic book, I doubt we'll support epic-level play that much, since doing so is more complex and less rewarding than supporting the part of the game that the vast majority of gamers prefer to play.

As long as there is something in the PFRPG that gives guidance to levels beyond 20, I'm good.
 

Well yes, but 'Industrial Magic' (TM) is not something I am partial towards at all. Magic creation is fine, but I hate the idea of PCs churning out magic items practically at will - I would like to see it be a mystical process perhaps requiring quests to obtain components to complete.

that is what i loved about 1st ed...the dm could make up what was needed to make a magic item and send the characters on quests to find the stuff to do it.
 

You know I think I figured out what the real key problem with epic is. No planning. And 4e is already falling into this trap, but it isn't too late for PF. By planning I mean taking into consideration what really is the top level of play and what monsters are at that top level. If becoming a diety is to be considered the highest you can go, or even uber god like Io or Ao are depicted, then there really shouldn't be anything beyond that. All you would really find at that level is other dieties to which you are left with fighting each other and that becomes boring.

I think the first step would be to determine what level will be the final; whether it be 20, 30, or even upto 100. Then every monster needs to be scaled on that level system so that they present the proper challenge. The reason this has been a problem is that in the past we've seen monsters that were meant to be the baddest top tier monster/encounter but then the bar is raised and oh they aren't anymore but they should be, hm. How can we fix that? We'll make new monsters (not that there's anything wrong with that) to fill the new void that we've created by upping the level or leave it to the DM to decide how to fix the problem by just bumping the dice and abilities. The last aspect tends to lead to either TPK or walk through the park encounters that don't challenge.

By planning the epic now and reserving monsters for it we'd see true ultimate threats being presented when they should be. So if Paizo is really thinking about doing Epic or just tossing the idea around I think it would work a lot better to start planning in advance. Worse come to worse you just release a different monster manual with the excluded monsters if you decide not to do Epic.
 
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Killing archdevils and demon lords (and taking their stuff, of course).

A time-honored D&D tradition. :)
Indeed.

But considering the apparent number of people that play D&D compared to those playing at Epic Level, it's not enough.

I mean, I am pretty much a combat-heavy player, but I think there is a point where there is no point. ;)
 

I mean, I am pretty much a combat-heavy player, but I think there is a point where there is no point. ;)

I never made it to that point in 3.5. The highest a PC I played obtained was a gestalt 26th level rogue/sorcerer. THAT was a fun character. I'd still be playing him if I could.
 

You know I think I figured out what the real key problem with epic is. No planning. And 4e is already falling into this trap, but it isn't too late for PF. By planning I mean taking into consideration what really is the top level of play and what monsters are at that top level. If becoming a diety is to be considered the highest you can go, or even uber god like Io or Ao are depicted, then there really shouldn't be anything beyond that. All you would really find at that level is other dieties to which you are left with fighting each other and that becomes boring.

I think the first step would be to determine what level will be the final; whether it be 20, 30, or even upto 100. Then every monster needs to be scaled on that level system so that they present the proper challenge. The reason this has been a problem is that in the past we've seen monsters that were meant to be the baddest top tier monster/encounter but then the bar is raised and oh they aren't anymore but they should be, hm. How can we fix that? We'll make new monsters (not that there's anything wrong with that) to fill the new void that we've created by upping the level or leave it to the DM to decide how to fix the problem by just bumping the dice and abilities. The last aspect tends to lead to either TPK or walk through the park encounters that don't challenge.

By planning the epic now and reserving monsters for it we'd see true ultimate threats being presented when they should be. So if Paizo is really thinking about doing Epic or just tossing the idea around I think it would work a lot better to start planning in advance. Worse come to worse you just release a different monster manual with the excluded monsters if you decide not to do Epic.

While I pretty much agree with most of what your saying, your point about 4e doesn't make any sense, at least in relation to the remainder of your post. 4e has a level 30 cap and the top, top tier monsters that are actually fightable at that level are Level 35 Solos (so far that's Tiamat, Vecna, and Mual-Tar). I don't see any movement towards breaking those caps.
 

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