Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Psionics (from Dreamscarred)

[Anguish]

I'm sorry to say that we won't be "upgrading" the Soulknife. Changing the BAB not only breaks an easy backwards compatibility, but also redefines the role from skirmisher to front-liner. We want to emphasize the skirmisher part and perhaps leave the front-line concept to a Prestige Class.

We'll continue to use our house-ruled version then. D8 hit die, slight re-arrangement of when things like throw and multithrow show up, and a handful of bonus feats. When we use the soulknife, we use it as a front-line character in place of a fighter/barbarian/paladin/ranger. With PF it's entirely possible that a rogue could take the place of one of these. Why soulknife continues to effectively be written as the 5th party member I'll never understand.

On the topic of backwards compatibility, there's so little soulknife-specific material out there (ignoring Dreamscarred Press material which is easily adapted) that it's a non-issue in my eye.

Anyone else have any ideas, feelings about our suggested system for a per-encounter PP pool?

Meh. We've talked about doing things the easy way and simply let the manifesting class have fewer power points per day and let them refresh. Or the active/max pool as discussed above. Per encounter you've got 1/4 your PP. At the end of the encounter, you rest a bit and draw from your daily into your active pool so you're good to go again. Kind of like Tome of Battle martial initiators and recovering expended maneuvers.

Your suggestion of ML+Int followed by full-round autohypnosis checks seems like a mighty nerf. One augmented power per encounter followed by every-other-round manifesting what works out to not-quite their highest level power? Errr, no.

 

[Vurt]

Meh. We've talked about doing things the easy way and simply let the manifesting class have fewer power points per day and let them refresh. Or the active/max pool as discussed above. Per encounter you've got 1/4 your PP. At the end of the encounter, you rest a bit and draw from your daily into your active pool so you're good to go again. Kind of like Tome of Battle martial initiators and recovering expended maneuvers.

To expand on this a little, the idea was simply to cut the amount of power points a psionic manifester gets to some fraction, and allow them to be spent per encounter, with a simple recovery mechanic of something like 5-15 minutes spent in psionic focus/meditation.

Additionally, an overdraft mechanic would be introduced, but at a cost of hit points. Say, in an encounter a psion burns 15 of his 20 allotted power points, but really wants to augment his next power to 7 PP. He can reach deep inside himself for the extra 2 PP, but for each PP so used he rolls 1d10 hp in damage.

The fractions and numbers involved need to be tweaked for balance, but that's the general idea. It's simple, allows the psionic manifester classes to contribute all day, still allows them to occasionally nova, but probably only when things get desperate, which should make for some nice dramatic tension.

 

[Voadam]

We will most likely go with a D8 rather than increase his BAB, to emphasize the skirmisher part of the class more.

I would expect an increase in mindblade powers then to keep balanced with PF rogues.

 

[Twowolves]

For good "old fashioned" psions, how about bringing back Primary, Secondary and Tertiary disciplines/devotions? Half or more powers must come from the Primary area, half or more of the remaining powers from the secondary, and the rest from a tertiary group. This makes Psions more thematicly similar than before, and prevents some of the "cherry-picking" of powers.

And Attack/Defense modes in Psionic Combat playing a larger role than just manifesting a power and getting a save bonus.

 

[Bacris]

We're definitely looking into the whole "cherry-picking" aspect of the disciplines - although I personally found the bookkeeping necessary with the "must have half from x" to be an annoyance more than anything.

The psion that Andreas and I have discussed will have six distinct flavors - an egoist will be different from a nomad will be different from a kineticist, etc.

 

[Angellis_ater]

We'll continue to use our house-ruled version then. D8 hit die, slight re-arrangement of when things like throw and multithrow show up, and a handful of bonus feats. When we use the soulknife, we use it as a front-line character in place of a fighter/barbarian/paladin/ranger. With PF it's entirely possible that a rogue could take the place of one of these. Why soulknife continues to effectively be written as the 5th party member I'll never understand.

On the topic of backwards compatibility, there's so little soulknife-specific material out there (ignoring Dreamscarred Press material which is easily adapted) that it's a non-issue in my eye.

I think I must have miscommunicated something here. The idea was to not change his Base Attack Bonus to full, not to "not make any changes" whatsoever.

We fully intend to change the following:
- Access (and bonus) to mindblade feats
- Earlier (and better) weapon forms (2xShort Sword, 1 longsword + shield or 1 greatsword)
- Better Psychic Strike
- Earlier access to Knife to the Soul (albeit in a different way)
- Something to increase his skirmishing abilities

Meh. We've talked about doing things the easy way and simply let the manifesting class have fewer power points per day and let them refresh. Or the active/max pool as discussed above. Per encounter you've got 1/4 your PP. At the end of the encounter, you rest a bit and draw from your daily into your active pool so you're good to go again. Kind of like Tome of Battle martial initiators and recovering expended maneuvers.

We discussed this too, the problem being that the Psion and specifically the Psychic Warrior becomes practically useless at the lowest levels.

Your suggestion of ML+Int followed by full-round autohypnosis checks seems like a mighty nerf. One augmented power per encounter followed by every-other-round manifesting what works out to not-quite their highest level power? Errr, no.

Which is why I love an open design discussion like this. To me I viewed it through the lens of some of our gaming groups in which the manifester rarely, if ever, manifests a fully augmented power the first thing he or she does. Apparently I misjudged how others play and thus this helps us understand these things better.

 

[Anguish]

Which is why I love an open design discussion like this. To me I viewed it through the lens of some of our gaming groups in which the manifester rarely, if ever, manifests a fully augmented power the first thing he or she does. Apparently I misjudged how others play and thus this helps us understand these things better.

Fair enough. I wasn't very complete in my input either, given I was somewhat rushed. But really, a 9th level psion can manifest a 5th-level power and it costs him 9 pp. If he's given ML+Int, what he's got is one 5th-level power once and what... "I'll throw a three point mind thrust in the second round and hope everything's dead after."

While you don't always or even frequently open up with your big toys, if that same psion were to start with say... a 4-point mind thrust he's just instantly denied himself access to his 5th-level power. If he then does even a 2-point power the next round, he loses access to all 4th-level powers. Too shallow.

Vurt and I hashed some things out last night and we might try playtesting something. Perhaps somewhere in the realm of 2 to 3 times ML at each level per encounter.

 

[Angellis_ater]

Vurt and I hashed some things out last night and we might try playtesting something. Perhaps somewhere in the realm of 2 to 3 times ML at each level per encounter.

I can only agree that I might have been a little low on my first attempt at this alternate rule. However, twice your manifester level + your Int modifier means you get 2 powers at max + something else, or say 3-5 rounds of powers before needing to refocus.

The important thing to understand here is also that this variant rule means that if the Psion does 8 encounters on one day, he'd have MORE pp than he would normally. Just not as much or as easily per encounter.

 

[Vurt]

The important thing to understand here is also that this variant rule means that if the Psion does 8 encounters on one day, he'd have MORE pp than he would normally. Just not as much or as easily per encounter.

If it means the psion can contribute something for the entire adventuring day, and isn't calling for the party to rest after a handful of encounters because he's tapped out, then that is a good thing. (So long as he doesn't overshadow the rest of the party while doing so. )

 

[Anguish]

I can only agree that I might have been a little low on my first attempt at this alternate rule. However, twice your manifester level + your Int modifier means you get 2 powers at max + something else, or say 3-5 rounds of powers before needing to refocus.

That's just it. Typical combat is four rounds. Being able to dump your maximum power twice in an encounter and being "out" seems fairly reasonable. (Note: I didn't say "plus Int" in my example.) Three might be a bit too much.

The important thing to understand here is also that this variant rule means that if the Psion does 8 encounters on one day, he'd have MORE pp than he would normally. Just not as much or as easily per encounter.

Sure, but again so what? Vurt makes the point, but really what does it matter how many powers are manifested in a day as long as the psion doesn't out-do anyone else? If the numbers are rigged right, it'd be balanced, which is the key. Sure, barbarians only get so many rounds of rage and bards only get so many rounds of song, but that's not a universal truth. Rogues get infinite sneak-attack and rangers get infinite favored enemy uses.

The Tome of Battle illustrates that you can build per-encounter balancing and it can work well. The wizard class would be really difficult to convert to such a balance system and the sorcerer wouldn't be terribly easy either. The psion (and wilder) are easy. So why not do it?