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PF2 Pathfinder Second Edition: I hear it's bad - Why Bad, How Bad?

amethal

Explorer
YMMV and all, but I find the DM who likes "true" sandbox settings usually have no problem with mounds of dead PCs and the occasional TPK restart.
I do my best to make it possible for the players to make an informed decision, although they might have to work a bit to get the information.

What decision they make (e.g. challenge the ogre or not) is up to them - they'll have to live or die with the consequences.

The ogre isn't going to take an extended vacation until they get to the "right" level and I'm not going to make the ogre fight easier, but on the other hand if they do manage to defeat it then its treasure won't mysteriously reduce "to avoid unbalancing the campaign" and its long-lost twin brother won't turn up later on "because the plot required the ogre still to be alive".
 
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zztong

Explorer
YMMV and all, but I find the DM who likes "true" sandbox settings usually have no problem with mounds of dead PCs and the occasional TPK restart.
Its a question of real-world priorities. If your players can't live with the consequences then your goal of running a "true" sandbox is impossible with your current players. Sure, in the virtual world, Ogres kill Characters. In the surrounding real world, your wife might insist you sleep on the couch. Your eight year-old might collapse into a puddle. Your best friend might hate you for a week.

I co-DM in two different games. One has players that can handle this, the other doesn't. In the light-casual game I would be far better off narrating the PCs being driven off by the Ogre, and if that wasn't clear enough, just mentioning the Ogre is content for later. Similarly, I don't mind telling that group if "splitting the party" is a good idea, or not, based on the situation. The more serious game? Eh, complicate their lives and leave them guessing. They'll love it.
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
Yes. Thank you.

I meant that I want to populate my sandbox with various foes. Of varying levels.

If I could only choose PL+1 (and not PL+5, say) it would quicky become absurd.
Ijust started reading my copy — how does splitting the difference at PL+ or -3 work for you? :) apparently, PL +4 is an “extreme” challenge, and +3 is a “severe” threat or elite monster, with +2 being “tough”. Conversely, PL-4 is trivial, and PL-2 is easy. Now, actual play, I won’t know for a while, hopefully as groups start playing the general trends will come out and see if those hold up.

Still a bit narrow of a band, for my taste - though not really any different from 3.x.
 

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Ijust started reading my copy — how does splitting the difference at PL+ or -3 work for you? :) apparently, PL +4 is an “extreme” challenge, and +3 is a “severe” threat or elite monster, with +2 being “tough”. Conversely, PL-4 is trivial, and PL-2 is easy. Now, actual play, I won’t know for a while, hopefully as groups start playing the general trends will come out and see if those hold up.

Still a bit narrow of a band, for my taste - though not really any different from 3.x.
I remember the early days of 3E, where level 4 was a near-TPK from a troll, and level 6 was the troll died quickly without being a threat! (Or something like that!)

Cheers!
 

JesterOC

Explorer
It didn't seem to be very different from the Playtest, but the devil is in the details.
Very true. Many many small changes that IMHO transform it into a fantastic book.

Is Ranger forward or back from here?
It is alphabetical. The only one that will throw you is Paladin's have been renamed to champion.

The DM was trying to figure out the new Resonance rules. He was having a hard time figuring out what items had to be attuned and which didn't. We found armor did, but apparently weapons don't?
Magic item quick rule. Most worn items require Investment (Pf2's version of attunement). Most everything else not.
Investment limit: 10
 

JesterOC

Explorer
If I could only choose PL+1 (and not PL+5, say) it would quicky become absurd.
The game is designed for players to encounter a 9 level spread. From -4 to +4. Which is not to say that you can't encounter a level +7 creature, only that your odds of successfully taking one on in a fair fight is questionable (But I know of a lot of crafty players that would find ways to even the odds.) If the player's encounter a dragon in the forest, just let them have a little heads up and/or a place to run to.
 

zztong

Explorer
It is alphabetical. The only one that will throw you is Paladin's have been renamed to champion.
I probably wasn't clear. I know the classes are alphabetical and about the Champion. The trouble was I would be staring at a list of Feats and not know which class it was, so I didn't know which way to go. "Is this Monk, Ranger, Rogue, or what?" I'd have to go a couple of pages forward to discover I needed to go a bunch of pages back. All the tab on the side said was "Classes."
 

JesterOC

Explorer
The trouble was I would be staring at a list of Feats and not know which class it was, so I didn't know which way to go. "Is this Monk, Ranger, Rogue, or what?" I'd have to go a couple of pages forward to discover I needed to go a bunch of pages back. All the tab on the side said was "Classes."
Each Feat has the keyword of the class associated with it under the title of the feat.
For example

SPECIALIZED COMPANION FEAT 14
DRUID
 

zztong

Explorer
Each Feat has the keyword of the class associated with it under the title of the feat.
For example

SPECIALIZED COMPANION FEAT 14
DRUID
Ah, see there you go. I might have figured that out if I had more time with the book. I was trying to find the class just looking at the navigational aids, header and footers. You know, as I paged through the book. I wasn't trying to read content until I got to the Ranger class.
 

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