Pathfinder 1E Pathfinderizing the Spellthief

[Wik]

My all-time favourite class is the spellthief - which happens to be one of the "weakest" classes in the game. Experience has told me that when the class is in its ideal element, it is a lot of fun and not "overpowered", but when it is in a situation where the stealing spell/innate abilities isn't an option, it is basically a useless class.

So, the question is, how to do the spellthief in pathfinder?

I realize there are some current options (such as the sandman) that exist, and if someone can point me towards RAW builds that approximate the spellthief, that'd be dandy. But if your GM said to you, "Wik, you can make up your own class that is based off the spellthief", how would you do it?

Keep in mind that the thing that makes the class so much fun to play is the ability to steal spells and spell-like abilities. Stealing a random spell and then trying to find the best use of it is a lot of fun for people that like to think on their feet and look for creative solutions - it's what I love about the class.

 

[Wik]

talking to my GM, and we think the best starting place is to take the beguiler, and modify it to have some spellthief abilities. Or maybe use the bard as a starting place, add in sneak attack (maybe at a lower die cost?) and throw in the sneak attack abilities at the cost of most of the bardic abilities.

 

[Wik]

Or, another idea that occured to me:

Spelltheft is simply a standard action, which you can do within 30 feet. If you catch the guy flatfooted (or flank him), you get a +2 on the attempt. When you steal a spell, you sacrifice one of your spell slots to gain a spell from your enemy. You make an opposed caster level check against his caster level check, with a bonus to your check equal to the level of the spell you sacrificed, while he gets a bonus equal to the level of the spell slot you're trying to steal.

If you succeed, you steal the spell (and maybe get to hit the caster with a negative effect as part of the action?). If you fail, well, too bad.

You get a full 9 levels of spells, but your spell list is limited (I'd say non-combat, roguey-type spells?). However, many of your spell slots can't actually be used to cast spells - instead, they can only be used to sacrifice for spell theft.

Also, you can steal spell-like abilities using the same method.

***

In addition to this, you'd have a d8 for hit points, 6 skill points, rogue trapfinding, and a few other minor abilities to round out the class - possibly around making magic items work and misfire in strange ways.

I like the idea because it gives the character something to do when he can't steal spells (he can cast them himself!), but it doesn't turn a spellthief who is unable to cast spells into a weaker version of the rogue or wizard.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, I'd start with full progression sneak attack (+1d6 every odd level), d8 HD, and bard spells per day progression and work from there.

If you make it playable, you'll make the actual rogue class look pointless. Ninja, Vivvisectionist, and Archaeologist all faced the same problem. If you're willing to just ignore that, you can end up with a fun, well balanced class that can actually function. Or you could try to balance it with the rogue...

 

[Varthol]

re

Mby, you can try making it into a prestige class instead...

One thing a friend of mine did, was making a gestalt version of a 3.5 hexblade and a spellthief into a pathfinder class. It probably leans more towards warrior rather than rogue this way though :/. Mby you can try giving the class 6+INT, not sure what he had in 3.5...

 

[SteelDraco]

I'd probably build it as a rogue archetype or talent tree. Rogue talents mostly suck, so I don't think introducing spell theft abilities there would be problematic - the game needs many more useful rogue talents.

There's an arcana theft spell that duplicates the central power of the spellthief, stealing ongoing effects. Stealing spell slots would be harder to balance, as it makes the spellthief too dependant on fighting casters.

 

[SteelDraco]

Well, I'd start with full progression sneak attack (+1d6 every odd level), d8 HD, and bard spells per day progression and work from there.

If you make it playable, you'll make the actual rogue class look pointless. Ninja, Vivvisectionist, and Archaeologist all faced the same problem. If you're willing to just ignore that, you can end up with a fun, well balanced class that can actually function. Or you could try to balance it with the rogue...

While the concept itself is fine, I dislike the vivisectionist for this reason. Why play a rogue when you can get 6th level spells AND the only really good rogue class feature? The alchemist list doesn't suck in terms of buffs, either.

Ninja less so, since that's closer to Rogue 2.0 and doesn't have spell progression.

 

[Wik]

There's an arcana theft spell that duplicates the central power of the spellthief, stealing ongoing effects.

Can you provide a link or a source? I'd like to take a look at it.

Stealing spell slots would be harder to balance, as it makes the spellthief too dependant on fighting casters.

This is the main problem with the class. The thing is, they're still only kind of okay when they fight casters - they steal a spell, and then spend an action to cast the spell.

This is why I think basing them off the bard is a great starting spot - 6 levels of spell casting means there is stuff they can do when they don't steal spells. Of course, since they can also steal spell-like abilities and ongoing effects, as well as resistances...

I'm thinking of reworking the class into a general debuff class, since that seems to be the core idea of the character. I'm also thinking it'd be fun to have a high level ability that lets the spellthief trigger ALL of a target's magic items at once, with random targets. Just for giggles.

 

[SteelDraco]

Can you provide a link or a source? I'd like to take a look at it.

Here ya go: Arcana Theft - Pathfinder_OGC

It's a magus-only spell, which rather surprised me. I thought bards and sorc/wiz casters got it too. I wonder if somebody writing for Paizo likes the spellthief as well, and considers the magus the class to build off of to recreate it? There are a decent handful of anti-caster arcana out there, and they get 6th level spells, just like a bard. The arcane pool/arcana mechanics wouldn't be a bad fit, either. You could adapt the spell combat mechanics into something that fixes your other problem, that they have to steal the spell and then cast it with two separate actions. Spell combat already provides a framework for an attack-then-cast kind of action.

Question is, how much thief stuff do you want them to be doing versus magic stuff? Is it your intent to have them fill the skill-based role, or be somewhere between skills and magic?

I'm thinking of reworking the class into a general debuff class, since that seems to be the core idea of the character. I'm also thinking it'd be fun to have a high level ability that lets the spellthief trigger ALL of a target's magic items at once, with random targets. Just for giggles.

Hm. A debuff class could work, as opposed to the bard, which is heavily buff-based. Are you thinking a debuff-centered spell list, like the witch's? I was picturing something with a lot of the spells a rogue would want - illusions, enchantments, movement effects, that kind of thing.

I like triggering a target's magic items, I did something similar with an artificer conversion I did, where they could identify a target's magic items by sight and then trigger them, targeting the wielder or centered on him.

 

[Wik]

My thought process right now works sort of like this:

* Use the rogue as a base to build off, but lose pretty much all the class abilities. The idea is that the character is thematically a rogue, but he doesn't have the things that make rogues awesome (no evasion, no sneak attack). Since there's a good chance I'll be playing this class alongside a rogue-lover, I really wouldn't want to step on toes or even be a little brother-type player in that arena.

* Light armour, and rogue-style weapons. The old spellthief's simple weapons only rule was kind of dumb. Like the bard, the spellthief can cast arcane spells in light armour.

* Instead of evasion, the spellthief would have evasion only against magical effects. Like the old spellthief, he would have a bonus to will saves against magic effects (as opposed to a flat good will save). He would retain trapfinding, but lose out on most of the awesome rogue mobility options.

* Spells are going to focus on debuff and stealth, with maybe a few charms and illusions thrown in. In other words, similar to the bard list, only without the sound-based spells and without the buffs. The idea of the spells being that they are something the class will do when he doesn't steal spells.

* The character can steal spells, spell-like abilities, and maybe redirect already-existing buffs. He should be able to use his "Virtual" spell slots to counterspell, as well. When he actually steals a spell, he must have a target that loses his dex bonus (like sneak attack). While he steals the spell, he will also, as past of the action, hit the caster with a negative effect. I'm thinking that effect will relate to making casting spells harder for the caster, or even applying caster level penalties to spells cast next round (ie, you can cast fireball, but it's only gonna do 3d6, as opposed to 5d6).

* All spells would be based off the character's charisma stat. As a fun side rule, you could say that if the spellthief stole a spell he couldn't normally cast (A 5th level divine spell, and the spellthief only has a wisdom of 14), there could be random penalties, although that's for later consideration after the main parts of the class are figured out.

* The class will have other magic-related abilities that are fun, but perhaps a touch unreliable, and more built in for flavour as opposed to pure mechanical awesomeness (ie, make a Use Magic Device check to drain two charges instead of one from a wand, but at a higher effect based on your check).

* My guideline for all this is to see how effective the character would be against a spell caster as opposed to, say, a ranger with Favoured Enemy (Wizard). My theory is that the spellthief as I've stated above would be better, but not overly so.