Pay to Play at FLGS?

[Dausuul]

Pay to play is reasonable; the pay to browse thing is what would get my hackles up.

 

[CharlesRyan]

In an ideal games shop, there'd be an abundance of clean, pleasant play space available for organized events and general player use. And, because availability of this space is useful and valuable to gamers and the community, there would be a small fee for using this space (outside of strictly demo type activities).

Paying this small fee (again, in the mythical ideal shop) is good for you, the customer. When you're paying for a service, instead of just mooching off the shop's space, the provider is obligated and incentivized to ensure that the service is good. Put another way: If you're just hanging out in their space, you have no basis for complaint if they don't treat you (or the space) right. But if you've paid them--even a nominal fee--you have a legitimate voice.

Pay to browse? Doesn't even warrant a response. I'm betting this is something they instituted to keep a few specific people from hanging around in the store all day scaring away real customers. But the mere fact that they're taking flack for it here shows that such policies--or rumors of policies--can backfire.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

The way I've always thought would be smart would be to have a modest fee for playing space that could be offset with credits accrued by making store purchases. Set it up so that all the players in a group accrue credits towards the space they use. Players in more than one group would split their credits among them.

 

[Pepster]

My local store (Above Board Games, Ft Mill SC - awesome folks!) runs a monthly late-night session - 10 PM to 2 AM - which they charge for. Friday Night Magic costs $5, but you get at least one booster pack for playing, and more if you place well. All the entry fees end up in the prize pool as cards. Encounters, Game Days and other sanctioned events are free.
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Large regular groups have a $5 table fee per person, BUT... that fee goes into a group account, and the GM can spend that as he or she wishes, on anything in the shop. In theory the GM could just augment his/her own game collection, but in practice it's more democratic. We end up getting minis, dice, player mats, dungeon tiles or helping a new player with the basic books or a setting book. (I haven't asked if it's useable for snacks).

The table fee is frequently waived for people who spend money regularly anyway, and as GM I'm willing to cover any of my players for whom it might be an issue (one is newly unemployed), since it's sort of my money anyway.

When the owner started charging $0.50/seat/hour last year, I was okay with that. Then he asked established role-playing groups to move from Friday night to accomodate Magic players from another store that had closed. That successfully drove those particular role-playing groups to play in their homes. I only shop there occasionally now for impulse purchases.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

While some of the policies described seem a bit extreme, it boils down to simple economics for me:

If you have a business, every last square foot of it has to contribute to the bottom line. You have employees wages and stock to pay, electricity and water (and possibly other utilities or amenities) calculated by useage, not to mention rent and common space maintenance fees, calculated by square feet rented. Oh yeah, there's also things like maintenance, depreciation/wear & tear. You want lights and a clean bathroom usable by customers? That costs money.

If your business has square feet that are not contributing to your revenues, you either have to cover them with markups on other services or products you're providing (IOW, using higher prices to subsidize the space) or you're probably going to kill your business. Someone will notice eventually that your prices are a bit higher than not just Amazon, but other LGSs that are in the same area that don't provide a free gaming space.

Thus, if your game store has provided a space to game in, you're paying for it one way or another. At least a pay to play model is a USE fee as opposed to having other customers subsidize the cost of the space.

 

[LightPhoenix]

I don't have a problem with pay to play, or whatever policies (even stupid ones) a store owner chooses to implement. The owner doesn't need to justify store policies - they own the store. As demonstrated in this thread, we all have the choice to shop there or not.

Going back to the theory about the pay to browse existing to prevent babysitting. I know some people here have expressed a dislike of "do not" signs, but that's really what the situation is - a behavior that owner does not want. I'd let it be known (through sign or otherwise) that the store is not responsible for children left alone, and reserves the right to demand anyone being unruly to leave, regardless of age. Of course, I've never really seen many problems with younger people playing. In fact, most "incidents" are generally middle-aged people.

 

[prosfilaes]

Someone will notice eventually that your prices are a bit higher than not just Amazon, but other LGSs that are in the same area that don't provide a free gaming space.

Why? I and several other people on this thread don't see much point in going to LGS that don't have gaming space. Even if I lived in town, every time I went to a LGS would run me subway fair back and forth, plus travel time each way. Without gaming space, I see no point in not going to Amazon. The prices at a game store I'm never going to go aren't relevant.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Why? I and several other people on this thread don't see much point in going to LGS that don't have gaming space. Even if I lived in town, every time I went to a LGS would run me subway fair back and forth, plus travel time each way. Without gaming space, I see no point in not going to Amazon. The prices at a game store I'm never going to go aren't relevant.

Prices all across the market are relevant to all gamers everywhere.

Again, its economics with an eye towards the long run. (Not trying to be a chicken little, just looking at how things could play out.)

Amazon can buy in massive quantities, getting them bulk purchase discounts. Since they use a JIT model, they keep inventory costs to a minimum. They tend to pass these savings on to the customer. (These are all good things for them and their customers.)

With Amazon's global market penetration, it makes sense for most sellers to have them as an outlet, including RPG companies. This kind of leverage means they have something approaching monopsony (single purchaser) power- something they get closer to with the closing of each LGS or other B&M store that sells RPGs. How close they are to a monopsony right now depends upon what % of WotC's (and other gaming companies') sales Amazon actually accounts for- a number I don't know. Monopsony power means the buyer can dictate an even lower purchase price than would be normal for a retailer of their size. (That is good for Amazon but bad for their customers in the long run.)

According to some game store owners of my acquaintance (and others who post here), Amazon's resultant purchase price is lower than the price they can purchase for, meaning they have to sell it at a higher price. Sometimes, that means Amazon's sale price is at or below LGS purchase prices- to match Amazon's price, they would not be able to make a profit on the sale. (If true, good for Amazon, bad for LGSs.)

As your post implies, a gaming section is one of the things a LGS can offer that Amazon simply doesn't have an answer for. Its a place to try before you buy. Its a place to gather without distraction. Its a place of fellowship. Its kind of like the stereotypical tavern in which so many FRPG adventures begin. (This is good for the LGS and the customer.)

If an LGS has a gaming section that is not being paid for by a pay to use model, then they have to subsidize it by another method- the LGS has to have a business model for making that space pay its share of the rent. So far, the typical game store with a "free" gaming space has depended on sales of snacks or higher prices on material sold in the store. Assuming its the latter method, that will drive the price on the game material even higher. (Good for Amazon, bad for LGSs.)

LGSs going under- whether they have a gaming section or not- means Amazon and similar retailers have less competition in that market, and that translates into higher prices to the end gaming consumer in the long run. (This is good for Amazon and bad for the consumer.)

The question then becomes one of price elasticity of demand: how much can a retailer with monopsony power in a given market jack up the price without killing off the market. If RPGs are price inelastic (that is, changes in their price have a relatively small effect on the quantity of the good demanded), they can set the price fairly high and people will continue to buy. If its high, then there isn't much of an issue- even as a SOLO retailer of the good in question, the price won't be affected much.

Now, I can't tell you what the price elasticity of demand for RPG products is, but given some of the anecdotal evidence of people testifying that they were selling off old game product (and other stuff) to buy new when 4Ed came out, its pretty low for at least some of us.

Bottom line: if your only deciding factors about where to shop are price and gaming space, you may not be doing yourself any favors in the long run. If you're good enough to buy product or snacks in a store with a free gaming space, you're OK with the store (and with me), but if you don't, you're passing off the costs of providing and maintaining that space to others who do; you're a drain on the store's bottom line.

 

[carmachu]

Let me play a bit of "Devil's advocate" here.

First off, I think an important feature of a game store is the fact that it's a "third space," in a way that cafes, bars, your favorite restaurant and the like are. Part and parcel of their appeal is the fact that you come there to socialize and have a place to hang out with your buddies. Coming in to check out a new product or to pick up a special order is one thing. Coming in to spend four to six hours playing a game there is an entirely different creature.

Would you be surprised if a restaurant asked you to make a purchase or leave if you took two hours poring over the menu? Would you be surprised if the coffee shop looked askance at you hanging out with your buddies for hours on end without getting a cup of joe? Would you go to your favorite downtown bar and bring your own liquor?

Furthermore, game stores are sort of unique in that people expect to be able to use products they buy in the store. I don't know of any other sort of business that does this on any sort of regular basis. I can't imagine Best Buy or H.H. Gregg letting you sit in their store and play your PlayStation 3 or Nintendo Wii every weekend just because you made the purchase there. I don't expect to buy my groceries, then go back to the grocery store a few days later to cook my dinner and eat it. That sort of thing just doesn't happen in any other retail business.

Retail space isn't free. The game store has to pay for that floor space, whether they put up a table and chairs for you to play D&D Encounters or they put up shelves for more product. I don't understand this attitude that a game store somehow owes people a free place to play. Go price a conference room at a local hotel or even a coffee place--in my area, the cheapest that conference space generally gets is around $30/hour.

It's issues like this that make me ashamed of the hobby.

Except most of those arent valid comparison to the OP story: Sure if I sat at a resturant table for 2 hours, they would expect you to order, because they seated you. But If I were to ask for a menu and look at it for an hour in the lobby, they woudnt exactly expect an order. They might ask to seat you, but not order.

But lets turn this around, example wise, for a moment-beacuse your example falls apart when one can go to barnes and noble, pick upa book and read it in a nice comfy chair, and they dont expect you to buy it for some reason. They are trying to get you to come in.

If they want to charge for rental space, sure, space isnt free. But thats not what the OP stated- charged for BEING IN THE STORE for 30 minutes, was the charge, which is outrageous. Most people can brouse teh racks for at least 30 minutes before picking something.

 

[Umbran]

Why? I and several other people on this thread don't see much point in going to LGS that don't have gaming space.

An LGS is dreadfully important for one thing - the ability to browse products.

Amazon and other online sellers are great if you already know exactly what you want. If you have questions and want to look through a product, they're less than grand. And you've got very little chance of just running into a product you didn't know about and weren't specifically looking for in an online store, but you can run into new and interesting things when they're physically arrayed on a shelf.

I'm not a big user of public gaming space. If the store is marking up the product prices to subsidize such a space, I'm less likely to buy there.