PC-level Aristocrats and Experts

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Due to a perceived lack of representation in the two archetypes, I've seen a lot of proposals for boosting the Aristocrat and Expert NPC classes into PC playable classes. Because of changes made in my Incorporating the Gestalt Rules thread, I've found the need to do so myself.

The Aristocrat is a vital component of any Knight archetype, and helps to turn the Paladin into the true "Knight in Shining Armor" archetype, as they are usually played. It also works well with various spellcasters, to represent magocracies, or with other classes, in systems in which the nobility isn't attached to a particular character class.

In order to make the Aristocrat a viable PC class, I've simply added a Bonus Feat list and a Bonus Feat at 1st level and every fifth level.

Aristocrat Bonus Feat List: Alertness, Animal Affinity, Deceitful, Diligent, Educated, Investigator, Iron Will, Jack of All Trades, Leadership, Negotiator, Persuasive, Skill Focus (any Aristocrat class skill), Urban Tracking.

This works best using the Gestalt rules, where the Aristocrat will add needed social skills to any class. In order to balance this for non-Gestalt characters, I would reccomend adding the Fighter bonus feat list (or a subset of it focusing on the fighting style of the nobility in the PC's culture) and giving them the Psychic Warrior's feat progression.

The Expert class, similarly, gains bonus feats relating to skill usage. All of the feats that give +2 to two different skills, as well as the Skill Focus feat for any class skill selected by the Expert.

Dwarves (and some Half-Dwarves) have Expert as one component of their Favored Gestalt. Unlike other Experts, this Expert has its class skills preselected. To make up for this slight loss of versatility, they have Craft (any) and Profession (any) as skills, instead of the Expert's requirement to select one.

Dwarven Expert class skill list: Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (engineering), Knowledge (history), Open Locks, Search, Survival

 

[Arkhandus]

Y'know, compared to a Fighter, the Aristocrat NPC class not only has a lower Base Attack Bonus but also no class features. You're not even giving them as many bonus feats as a Fighter.....that makes them a rather poor choice of character. Expert or Rogue would be better multiclassing options for getting the social skills, really, because it would take fewer levels in those to get the same results and thus allow more levels to be taken in better classes. Though you're using the Gestalt character stuff from UA, so that does change things..... If you're going to encourage use of the Aristocrat and Expert by PCs, you'd really have to pump them up. Either replace them with suitable PC classes presented on the boards (myself and various others have produced Aristocrat/Noble/Citizen/etc. classes of more or less PC-class potency/usefulness) or give them more than just a few meager, limited, bonus feats over time. Bump up the Aristocrat and Expert's skill points per level by 2 points, for instance, and give them bonus feats at the same rate as a Fighter, or at least similar to that.

 

[Vrecknidj]

In a friend's campaign, where almost everyone else is a fighter (or barbarian, or ranger), I play a wizard. But, she began as an aristocrat, and then took two levels as an expert. She is currently Ari1/Exp2/Wiz10. She's the only arcane spellcaster in the party, but, with the aristocrat's class features, she carries a longsword and shortsword, packs a chainshirt for when combat is necessary, and can handle her horse with no problem. In addition, because of the skills she selected as an expert, she's masterful with Diplomacy, and quite capable with Bluff and Intimidate (the 18 Cha comes in handy).

She's a blast to play. The DM ruled thusly. Since she has 3 levels of NPC classes, she started 1 level ahead of the rest of the group. She still is, although, by now, advancement is a little tighter, and so most of the rest will be 13th level before she's 14th. Still, it's pretty even.

I think that having characters with NPC classes start out one level ahead of the rest of the party (so long as all those levels are NPC classes), is a good way to balance the classes.

I think that the aristocrat and expert make excellent classes to multiclass in. The aristocrat, for example, gives a fighter a good will save and much better skills, and gives a rogue the same good Will save, and a better assortment of weapons, and doesn't skimp on the BAB.

As far as the expert, as a multiclassing option, it's great for qualifying for prestige classes that need a bunch of skills, especially if you're playing a character who could stand to use an improved Will save.

That said, if I were playing a single-classed aristocrat or expert, things might get kinda boring. But, I don't know that there's a need for that. After all, one can achieve the flavor that's being discussed here (noble, etc.) by just adding some levels of aristocrat to another class.

Dave

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Y'know, compared to a Fighter, the Aristocrat NPC class not only has a lower Base Attack Bonus but also no class features. You're not even giving them as many bonus feats as a Fighter.....that makes them a rather poor choice of character. Expert or Rogue would be better multiclassing options for getting the social skills, really, because it would take fewer levels in those to get the same results and thus allow more levels to be taken in better classes.

In a non-Gestalt game, do you think 6 skill points would be sufficient to bump the Aristocrat up to appropriate levels? Perhaps giving Leadership for free at sixth level would also be fitting. (And, perhaps, adding a limited subset of Fighter feats to the bonus list.)

The Aristocrat's weapon and armor proficiencies give them an edge over Rogue or Expert for picking up those social skills, at least for non-martial characters. And since the Fighter and Paladin (the two most likely to be combined with Aristocrat) have only 2 skill points per level, the Aristocrat's extra skill points are a pretty decent incentive.

 

[Nifft]

Take a peek at my Aristocrat:

http://klimt.cns.nyu.edu/~fishman/DnD/DHE/new-classes.shtml

It's got:

• All good saves -- IMC, Aristocrats train to be hard to kill.
• 6 Skill Points/level -- They know lots of stuff. Knowlege (Any) is in there, too.
• 3/4 BAB -- They're lovers, not Fighters.
• Leadership -- Bonuses to Leadership score, and free Leadership at 6th level.
• Wealth -- Extra stuff at early levels, like the Wealthy feat in AU.
• Influence -- Bonuses to some skills in certain situations -- gives the PC a chance to say stuff like, "Do you know who I am?!?", and have it mean something mechanically.

IMHO, it's balanced against the Monk, which my version most closely resembles. Heavy armor + Martial weapons + Leadership bonus ~= a bevy of special abilities, speed and increasing unarmed damage.

Two or three levels of Rogue might help an Aristocrat, but that's no different than a Fighter or Barbarian -- nearly everyone loves Rogue levels.

-- N

 

[Nifft]

Oh, and one other note on my design -- I tried very hard NOT to make them step on the Fighter's toes. IMHO, it should be a valid and useful decision for an Aristocrat to take 1-4 levels of Fighter. Thus, I say NO to any kind of Fighter bonus feats. That's the Fighter's whole big class feature. Let them take Fighter levels if they want extra Feats, just like they should take Rogue levels for Evasion or Ranger levels for Tracking (say, for a lord who loves to hunt).

-- N

 

[Gez]

Should I pimp again my own version of the Aristocrat?

Yes, I figured I should.

If they step on any toes, it's on the Bard's. Which I figured is OK, since for roleplay reason, I don't think a noble is going to want to become a tavern singer.

My reasonning was that what made someone a leader is not his capacity to fight, sling spells, or pick lock; it's not even his capacity to do wise rulings (there's a number of real-life examples, past and present). It's his capacity to lead. To motivate his troops, to make people want to follow him.

 

[index]

expert wizard

Vrecknidj aka Dave wrote:

> In a friend's campaign, where almost everyone else is a fighter (or
> barbarian, or ranger), I play a wizard. But, she began as an
> aristocrat, and then took two levels as an expert. She is currently
> Ari1/Exp2/Wiz10. She's the only arcane spellcaster in the party, but,
> with the aristocrat's class features, she carries a longsword and
> shortsword, packs a chainshirt for when combat is necessary, and can
> handle her horse with no problem. In addition, because of the skills
> she selected as an expert, she's masterful with Diplomacy, and quite
> capable with Bluff and Intimidate (the 18 Cha comes in handy).

How long did you have to play to get 10 additional levels?
(After the DM allowed his friend to blatantly cheat to steal
from the group, I quit a very stingy game where I had 6
character levels after two years.)

It's good to see another fan of the Expert class (and I
understand why you took the Aristocrat class, I think), but
in my experience, multiclassing cripples a spellcaster.

[....]

> I think that having characters with NPC classes start out one level
> ahead of the rest of the party (so long as all those levels are NPC
> classes), is a good way to balance the classes.

Makes perfect sense, given the CR rules for NPC classes.

> I think that the aristocrat and expert make excellent classes to
> multiclass in. The aristocrat, for example, gives a fighter a good
> will save and much better skills, and gives a rogue the same good Will
> save, and a better assortment of weapons, and doesn't skimp on the
> BAB.

But there are PC classes that also improve a Fighter's
Rogue's will save or gives a Rogue better weapons. To me,
the reason to take the NPC Aristocrat class is the social
advantages and starting wealth. Isn't there a feat that
gives beginning characters those two advantages?

> As far as the expert, as a multiclassing option, it's great for
> qualifying for prestige classes that need a bunch of skills,
> especially if you're playing a character who could stand to use an
> improved Will save.

Even though I'm a fan of the Expert, the Rogue gets more
skill points. Take the 'Education' feat if you can spare
the slot:

> > Education [General]
> > In your youth, you received the benefit of several years of
> > more-or-less formal schooling
> > Benefit: All knowledge skills are class skills for you. You receive
> > a +1 competence bonus to two Knowledge skills of your choice.
> > Special: You must take this skill at 1st level, only.

If I remember correctly, Education is originally a Forgotten
Realms feat, but I see it all over the Internet these days.
IIRC, there's a similar feat to make one other skill a
permanent class skill.

EDIT - It's the 'Cosmopolitan' feat from FRCS. +2 to a skill, and it's
now always a class skill. The way Skill Focus SHOULD work IMO.

> That said, if I were playing a single-classed aristocrat or expert,
> things might get kinda boring. But, I don't know that there's a need
> for that. After all, one can achieve the flavor that's being
> discussed here (noble, etc.) by just adding some levels of aristocrat
> to another class.

Very true. I'm assuming your DM doesn't give you
multi-classing XP penalties for NPC classes? (Personally,
I've always been of the opinion that multi-classing should
cost you time, not XP. Otherwise, you can throw out the
starting age chart, because a lot of wizards will start with
a single level of rogue or something, then spend two weeks
becoming a wizard instead of 2d6 years.)

May your expert wizard have great adventures and amusing
vacations...

--index

 

[Vrecknidj]

How long did you have to play to get 10 additional levels? (After the DM allowed his friend to blatantly cheat to steal from the group, I quit a very stingy game where I had 6 character levels after two years.)

I've played in that campaign since about 1987, this particular group of characters started in the early 90's. I've retired three characters, and this, my fourth, started at 9th level. The other players and I have played together the entire time. So, I know what you mean about slow advancement (12 levels, average, per character, in about 10 years).

It's good to see another fan of the Expert class (and I understand why you took the Aristocrat class, I think), but in my experience, multiclassing cripples a spellcaster.

In this particular campaign, arcane spellcasting is against the law. It's a very low magic world, and I play the only spellcaster PC. I took the other classes out of necessity so this character has a legitimate way of blending into the world.

I'm assuming your DM doesn't give you multi-classing XP penalties for NPC classes?
My character has no xp penalty. Since she's human, her wizard levels don't count, and the other two classes are 1 level apart. She'll probably only take wizard levels for the rest of her life as a character.

Dave

 

[index]

no OGL?

Nifft wrote :
> Take a peek at my Aristocrat:
>
> http://klimt.cns.nyu.edu/~fishman/DnD/DHE/new-classes.shtml
>
> It's got:

[lots cool stuff snipped]

Unfortunately, this notice on your web page:

> > Nothing here is OGL, unless explicitly indicated.

Basically makes your webpage useless to me. If I as a DM
can't put up my own version on a campaign website for
players, what use is it to me? In fact, I have to now try
to forget your niftiness when coming up with my own version
to avoid legal problems.

(Didn't you mean OGC (Open Gaming Content)?)

If you are not making your stuff OGC, then you have to be
VERY careful about using WotC's OGC, making sure you stay
STRICTLY within 'fair use'. And since 'fair use' is such a
nebulous, mutable concept within copyright law, basically
whoever has the biggest lawyer wins.

I like what you came up with, Nifft, but I've been burned by
copyright problems before.

Also, most people who have made a PC version of the
Aristocrat have named their version 'Noble' to avoid
confusion with the NPC class. Sure, it's a little awkward,
but less so than having another person assuming your
character has several levels of the DMG NPC class.

> Two or three levels of Rogue might help an Aristocrat, but that's no
> different than a Fighter or Barbarian -- nearly everyone loves Rogue
> levels.

Nod nod nod. Any non-spellcasting multiclasser should
consider one (skills, lots of skill), two (Evasion) or four
(Uncanny Dodge) levels of Rogue. (If you cast spells,
you're crippling that ability by multiclassing.)

--index