PC refusing to play a higher level character to start...
- Thread starter starkad
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Sir Osis of Liver
Explorer
It's funny, i actually have a view of things simila to this guy, the big differance is i'm a 100 times more flexable about it. Like anyone i can be stubborn, or difficult at times, but i try to put the fealings of the whole group first. I do i think have a tendacy to try and persuade my friends away from the things i don't want to do, i however would never threaten to leave over something like that. If it comes up that everyone wants to play a game i don
't like it's possible that i'd skip those games nights, but i'm more likly to just make the best of it and try to have fun entill things shifted back to what interested me.
If this guy is your friend and you don't want to ditch him I'd recommend explaining how you feal and find some comprimise, switch off games everyother week, or agree to play his type of game after the one you're running now is done. Then make it clear to him that if he really can't stand the game planned for a given night he should feal ok with not coming, but if he does come he needs to be respectful of the group.
Sanackranib
First Post
rude player
I lost one of the best people I have ever gamed with when I tried to accomodate a bad player. The real kick was he only wound up playing another 2 sessions then I had to ask him to leave.
Don't kill off his character to make a point. All that does is make the player mad and cause bad blood between you and the player.
Having said that don't pull your punches either. I would suggest rolling your to hit/damage dice and NPC saves that he causes in fron of him. let his style of play kill his own character. this way he can't accuse you of killing him.
And as was already mentioned if it's not working ask him to leave. Not all gaming groupes are compatabile. Life is too short to continue to have to "endure" one of your players. My last groupe had some work schedual changes, and my current groupe has 4 new players. None of us had ever gamed togather before 2 sessions ago. I met the 1st player in a local game store -we were both checking out some of the new books and got to talking, I answered an online add and met the 2nd , and 3rd that way. I reciently found the 4th the same way. Our 1st session had 2 players and a couple of NPC's. 2nd session introduced player 3. and next session the 4th will join. I mention this because a good game/groupe rarly happens overnight. We have an enthustiac groupe who enjoy playing togather - without the stress of arguing with a meta gamer or rules lawyer.
If you are not happy with your situation as a player move on, as the DM work it out or ask the player to move on. It's in your hands and you always have a choice.
I lost one of the best people I have ever gamed with when I tried to accomodate a bad player. The real kick was he only wound up playing another 2 sessions then I had to ask him to leave.
Don't kill off his character to make a point. All that does is make the player mad and cause bad blood between you and the player.
Having said that don't pull your punches either. I would suggest rolling your to hit/damage dice and NPC saves that he causes in fron of him. let his style of play kill his own character. this way he can't accuse you of killing him.
And as was already mentioned if it's not working ask him to leave. Not all gaming groupes are compatabile. Life is too short to continue to have to "endure" one of your players. My last groupe had some work schedual changes, and my current groupe has 4 new players. None of us had ever gamed togather before 2 sessions ago. I met the 1st player in a local game store -we were both checking out some of the new books and got to talking, I answered an online add and met the 2nd , and 3rd that way. I reciently found the 4th the same way. Our 1st session had 2 players and a couple of NPC's. 2nd session introduced player 3. and next session the 4th will join. I mention this because a good game/groupe rarly happens overnight. We have an enthustiac groupe who enjoy playing togather - without the stress of arguing with a meta gamer or rules lawyer.
If you are not happy with your situation as a player move on, as the DM work it out or ask the player to move on. It's in your hands and you always have a choice.
Laslo Tremaine
Explorer
I have a buddy who is like this. We solved our probelms about 10 years ago.
After one particulary confrontational campaign (I think it was Champions), we came to the conclusion that we were driving each other nuts. So we decided to stop gaming together. He's still a good friend. We still hang out and do stuff together. We just don't roleplay together.
It happens...
You might also want to look into the concept of "I Statements". I know it sounds horribly new-age and touchy-feely, but I have found this communication technique to be very useful when talking to someone who is hostile, combatative or overly defensive.
This link gives a good overview of the "I Statement" concept:
http://www.colorado.edu/conflict/peace/example/amod6814.htm
Good luck!
After one particulary confrontational campaign (I think it was Champions), we came to the conclusion that we were driving each other nuts. So we decided to stop gaming together. He's still a good friend. We still hang out and do stuff together. We just don't roleplay together.
It happens...
You might also want to look into the concept of "I Statements". I know it sounds horribly new-age and touchy-feely, but I have found this communication technique to be very useful when talking to someone who is hostile, combatative or overly defensive.
This link gives a good overview of the "I Statement" concept:
http://www.colorado.edu/conflict/peace/example/amod6814.htm
Good luck!
You need to bottom-line it to this guy, post haste. If you let things continue pressure will just keep building up until it explodes and feelings get permanently hurt.
He has a narrow paradigm for gaming, and it's making gaming difficult, frustrating and generally no-fun for everyone else. Either he needs to loosen up and try some new things or you need to part ways before animosity starts. He is being a baby about his character. People run the risk of dying, especially ones who do dangerous things. If he can't accept that or thinks it's personal when (not if) it happens, then he needs to move on. This is an example of his narrow paradigm. If PCs were never meant to die, then why are there rules in the PHB and elsewhere that outline death? I agree though that you make all attack and damage rolls out in the open so he can understand it's the creature and the combat rules, not you, that killed him.
To me one of the great things about gaming, and I'm sure many will agree with me on this, is the ability to try out so many different scenarios in a variety of different paces. It can be a lot of fun to switch gears and play a character starting at 16th level, or run a campaign where everyone is evil, or have everything take place in the planes. It's a refreshing change of pace from the cliche dungeon-crawling dragon-slaying adventure. Maybe what I'm trying to say is one of the fundamentals of a good gamer (and ergo a good game) is flexibility. If he can't be flexible, he probably shouldn't be gaming. Remind him that either everyone is held hostage to doing everything his way, or they game without him. Make sure he understands that he is in the minority, and needs to change his idealogies to accomodate, not the other way around.
About the taking 5-10 minutes to do something in a round, as well as the resting after each fight. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that he usually gets angry or upset when the fight isn't exactly going to the PCs. In other words, his ideal fight is one where he (and the PCs, but they're secondary) mops up the opposition without taking any real damage. Maybe this is just a personal preference, but my favorite fights are the tooth and nail ones. Where half the time the party is staring defeat squarely in the eyes, and has to be resourceful and rely on some luck to pull through. To me this is hair raising and part of why I keep playing. To others I've gamed with, these sort of fights are aggrivating and spoil their fun. Usually instead of being resourceful, they'll stick to some tactic that really isn't working to further the fight and instead puts the party in deeper peril, though they don't care at that point as they all but openly protest the fight they've been put up against. Sound familiar?
Anyway, bottom line it. He needs to expand a little bit and try new things or he needs to find a new group. With him saying he "might try" that other game, it sounds like he doesn't want to leave the group, but is too stubborn to change his ways and is going to make everyone else pull teeth if they want to try something different. Explain that to him and if he doesn't shape up, move on without him. It's better than having everything come to a head later on, which I'm guessing will happen. On top of that, consider if you cave in and another regular leaves because they're sick of the same thing over and over.
He has a narrow paradigm for gaming, and it's making gaming difficult, frustrating and generally no-fun for everyone else. Either he needs to loosen up and try some new things or you need to part ways before animosity starts. He is being a baby about his character. People run the risk of dying, especially ones who do dangerous things. If he can't accept that or thinks it's personal when (not if) it happens, then he needs to move on. This is an example of his narrow paradigm. If PCs were never meant to die, then why are there rules in the PHB and elsewhere that outline death? I agree though that you make all attack and damage rolls out in the open so he can understand it's the creature and the combat rules, not you, that killed him.
To me one of the great things about gaming, and I'm sure many will agree with me on this, is the ability to try out so many different scenarios in a variety of different paces. It can be a lot of fun to switch gears and play a character starting at 16th level, or run a campaign where everyone is evil, or have everything take place in the planes. It's a refreshing change of pace from the cliche dungeon-crawling dragon-slaying adventure. Maybe what I'm trying to say is one of the fundamentals of a good gamer (and ergo a good game) is flexibility. If he can't be flexible, he probably shouldn't be gaming. Remind him that either everyone is held hostage to doing everything his way, or they game without him. Make sure he understands that he is in the minority, and needs to change his idealogies to accomodate, not the other way around.
About the taking 5-10 minutes to do something in a round, as well as the resting after each fight. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that he usually gets angry or upset when the fight isn't exactly going to the PCs. In other words, his ideal fight is one where he (and the PCs, but they're secondary) mops up the opposition without taking any real damage. Maybe this is just a personal preference, but my favorite fights are the tooth and nail ones. Where half the time the party is staring defeat squarely in the eyes, and has to be resourceful and rely on some luck to pull through. To me this is hair raising and part of why I keep playing. To others I've gamed with, these sort of fights are aggrivating and spoil their fun. Usually instead of being resourceful, they'll stick to some tactic that really isn't working to further the fight and instead puts the party in deeper peril, though they don't care at that point as they all but openly protest the fight they've been put up against. Sound familiar?
Anyway, bottom line it. He needs to expand a little bit and try new things or he needs to find a new group. With him saying he "might try" that other game, it sounds like he doesn't want to leave the group, but is too stubborn to change his ways and is going to make everyone else pull teeth if they want to try something different. Explain that to him and if he doesn't shape up, move on without him. It's better than having everything come to a head later on, which I'm guessing will happen. On top of that, consider if you cave in and another regular leaves because they're sick of the same thing over and over.
Laslo Tremaine said:It happens...
You might also want to look into the concept of "I Statements". I know it sounds horribly new-age and touchy-feely, but I have found this communication technique to be very useful when talking to someone who is hostile, combatative or overly defensive.
This link gives a good overview of the "I Statement" concept:
http://www.colorado.edu/conflict/peace/example/amod6814.htm
Good luck!
I have nothing against "I" statements. I am a member of the Mankind Project ( www.mkp.org ). It's one of the fundamentals of the healing work I do. It's hard to stick to it online, but in person much easier.
starkad said:
Now I'm a little more on his side of things. Obviously, he has a great deal of difficulty selecting one possibility out of billions, and when he forces himself to do so, it rings false. For whatever reason that might be one of his limitations. It might make the situation untennable. But I don't think so.
Maybe as least with DnD he just needs that seed to get the process started. So you could DM him in a solo adventure or two, then he could extrapolate the character to the appropriate level from there.
But you're still not really talking to him. Perhaps that both of your faults. "I don't know about spycraft, don't count on me." Doesn't translate to, "Bow to my will, serf! Now, kiss my ring." Make your pitch for spycraft as a change from the now all too familiar fantasy. Listen to him, if you're unsure about what he's saying, it's probably a good time to ask for clarification. Sometimes, good friends have different tastes.
One time not so long ago, I thought I was introducing a friend of mine to the sublime pleasure of the highly entertaining Super Troopers. He saw it a little differently. He was certain I was trying to torture him, possibly to death. His response was to make me watch The Mummy Returns, for which he later appologized. Between good friends even that can sometimes be forgiven.
But let's be honest. You are trying to force him to do something he doesn't think he can do well. And he's trying to force you to suffer something you'd rather not. Of the two it certainly seems you're being the least reasonable, perhaps because we haven't heard his position yet. He doesn't have the "imagination" to write a compeling, and significant backstory. Your solution is, it's simple, just use imagination. How does that even address his supposed problem?
That said, the Frodo Baggins suggestion isn't a bad one, you might need a house rule to make experience reasonable. But it could certainly lend an important dramatic element(s). You seemed to dismiss it without consideration. Your choice, of course, it's your game after all. But it certainly casts suspicions.
I don't think the other players would complain. Having a lvl 1 char in their group would lover their group level. So when you go back to calculate Xp, instead of having a group of level 15's, you would have a lower level group- say level 12. That would mean that they get more xp- yippeeee supersonic leveling up. After 15 sessions- he will be the smae level.
No seriously- why is he not wanting to play somethign higher? have him convert from an old char or bring it over from another edition.
Otherwise- it would be very hard for him. If you do not have the time to grow into your char (by playing every level) and every ability, then you will not play it effectively. A wiz has a laundry list of spells to go through. If you do not have the two levels to familiarize it with, you will be hammered.
No seriously- why is he not wanting to play somethign higher? have him convert from an old char or bring it over from another edition.
Otherwise- it would be very hard for him. If you do not have the time to grow into your char (by playing every level) and every ability, then you will not play it effectively. A wiz has a laundry list of spells to go through. If you do not have the two levels to familiarize it with, you will be hammered.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Make an NPC of about that level...
....give it to him and say "Make this man real."
Works for my higher level campaigns.
....give it to him and say "Make this man real."
Works for my higher level campaigns.
It was never my desire to paint him in a 'bad' light, nor to have folks here take sides.
I originally posted for some ideas on how to help me curve around the situation.
I got plenty of them. If I could post the conversations he and I had, I would... They would clearly show a difference of opinion and two very stubborn people.
I finally threw in the towel (not without a final 'well since you conceded, now i am more willing to play a higher level character' comment from him... which i took a lot of offense to), and decided to let him play a high ECL creature... The group is in an uproar about it, and I agree with them. So I am going to have a small debate before we play this coming tuesday. They are going to drown him, and I am going to have a lot of pleasure to finally have some backup.
I'll still allow him to play, but I refuse to take the beating and sacrifice my fun for my group. If they want fun too, they need to stick up for it.
I also warned him that the kiddie gloves are off with his character, and all rolls will be out in the open from now on.
I originally posted for some ideas on how to help me curve around the situation.
I got plenty of them. If I could post the conversations he and I had, I would... They would clearly show a difference of opinion and two very stubborn people.
I finally threw in the towel (not without a final 'well since you conceded, now i am more willing to play a higher level character' comment from him... which i took a lot of offense to), and decided to let him play a high ECL creature... The group is in an uproar about it, and I agree with them. So I am going to have a small debate before we play this coming tuesday. They are going to drown him, and I am going to have a lot of pleasure to finally have some backup.
I'll still allow him to play, but I refuse to take the beating and sacrifice my fun for my group. If they want fun too, they need to stick up for it.
I also warned him that the kiddie gloves are off with his character, and all rolls will be out in the open from now on.
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