Imperialus
Explorer
I'll second the massive guild war in the aftermath with half the guild out to kill the PC's and the other half wants to get the PC to help them wipe out the other half of the guild.
PC's are in the process of killing an important story NPC, whats one to do?
- Thread starter Shyloc
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Chimera
First Post
Making the entire campaign dependent on one NPC (or much worse, one PC) is a singularly BAD idea. It's like building a tower all resting on one beam. Too much weight without proper support.
It's also a form of railroading.
And on my own part, I hate it when a GM makes this central, really annoying NPC and then does everything in his power, including pulling Duex Ex Machinas out of his butt, to prevent the PCs from killing that NPC. That's about the point where I take a walk from the game. Because the game is no longer about my story and that of the other players, it's about the GM's favorite NPC.
It's also a form of railroading.
And on my own part, I hate it when a GM makes this central, really annoying NPC and then does everything in his power, including pulling Duex Ex Machinas out of his butt, to prevent the PCs from killing that NPC. That's about the point where I take a walk from the game. Because the game is no longer about my story and that of the other players, it's about the GM's favorite NPC.
smilinggm
First Post
As with the others I reccomend to let him die. I also support the Idea of bringing him back as an undead. A ghost is a very good choice. Let other plots move forward but start to hint that there is something haunting them. Something that is getting in their way. The thief had a life quest that would follow him into undeath. Over time let the PCs know that through thier actions they made the situation worse. Let them discover that the only way to permantly destroy this ghost is by taking up its quest and fufulling it. Even if this quest requires them to do some evil or unsavory things. Don't over do your new and improved villian. Just make things tougher for them. Let the PCs sweat at the conseiquences of their actions.
Len
Prodigal Member
As a couple of others have said:
The players don't know that they were supposed to talk to THIS particular NPC. Just make ANOTHER character to give them the info. The guild leader's son, the new guild leader, the leader of the other guild, the good guy who has been trying to bust the guild...
Except this time don't set it up so the players think they're supposed to kill the guy.
The players don't know that they were supposed to talk to THIS particular NPC. Just make ANOTHER character to give them the info. The guild leader's son, the new guild leader, the leader of the other guild, the good guy who has been trying to bust the guild...
Except this time don't set it up so the players think they're supposed to kill the guy.
Khorod
First Post
If you can't retcon a reasonable magical effect to save him (like a Ring of Regeneration), then let him die.
When the PCs do things that affect the core story like that, I accept it. But the new route they are taking is usually more painful than it otherwise would have been... unless they manage some excellent role-playing.
That simultaneously balances out the sword-happy behavior and assuages your own pain.
When the PCs do things that affect the core story like that, I accept it. But the new route they are taking is usually more painful than it otherwise would have been... unless they manage some excellent role-playing.
That simultaneously balances out the sword-happy behavior and assuages your own pain.
Liquidsabre
Explorer
MonkeyDragon said:
Oh yea, absolutely agree.
For example, in the case they killed the guildmaster: have the new head of the thieves guild personally thank the PCs for what they did and give them rewards of some kind, that'll really mess with their heads. Especially if they are good PCs and the new guildmaster is much, much worse than the old one!
the Jester
Legend
I gotta agree with the masses... let 'im die.
Dog Moon
Adventurer
How about this person wasn't actually the Guild leader, but he was simply the person who claims to be the Guild leader? The true Guild leader is behind the scenes. He sees his puppet falls, which annoys him, but it really isn't a big deal. The PCs have no idea that the person they killed isn't truly the Guild leader. Another person replaces the "Guild leader" and everything continues smoothly. This could be an adventure in and of itself as people are curious as to just how smoothly the Guild leader is replaced.
Or some variant of this.
Or some variant of this.
PapersAndPaychecks
First Post
Stop, step back, take a deep breath, and think.
What are you trying to achieve with this game? Are you:-
(a) Telling the players a story which you have already figured out in your head, or
(b) Running an interactive game in which the players' actions can alter the outcome.
Now, some DM's run games which are almost pure (a); they will act to preserve their carefully-planned plotlines no matter what spanners the PC's throw in the works. A bad DM of type "a" would have this NPC improbably rescued from death via some power or magic item, or suddenly introduce an evil NPC High Priest who raises his body (NB: this works once. If you do it often, the players will learn that when they kill an important NPC they should burn the corpse and scatter the ashes over the ocean, and this is what they will start to do).
However, this is a heavy-handed approach. The message that it sends to the players is "You cannot mess up my plotlines; if you try, I will make something happen to preserve the plot." It tells them that they cannot have any impact on important outcomes. If you're going to act in this way, there's no point playing it out as a game. The players might as well just sit around drinking beer while you tell them what happens.
A good DM of type "a" would permit the NPC to die, but would act to preserve his plotline in such a way that his actions were invisible to the players. The next person in line to run the Thieves' Guild would be a noticeably different NPC, but who nevertheless shared the old GL's aims and objectives (personally I'd make it the existing GL's girlfriend who's read his diary and knows what he had planned).
A DM of type "b" would react to the situation by immediately abandoning the plot. There's many sessions worth of mileage simply in administering the consequences of the PCs' actions.
For example, the result might be upheaval and turmoil in the Thieves' Guild as the different possible successors all scramble for leadership. Divide the Guild into two or three factions and set them warring among themselves; but one of the few things upon which the Guild can agree would be that the murderers of the old GL need to be caught and punished, so have them set a huge price on the PCs' heads. Of course, being aware that the former GL was butchered, these people will do their utmost to eliminate the PC's without the PC's ever becoming aware of who they are, let alone where to find them.
In the meantime, the Thieves' Guild informs the law of the murder and demand that the characters be brought to justice. Since they have the ear of a corrupt judge, a warrant is issued locally for the characters' arrest - in other words, they're on the run from the Guild and the law at the same time.
I advise combining these two approaches.
In the short term, abandon all hope of progressing the plot. The characters have done something big - so you should make them feel that they've affected things. They need to see big changes in the world that arise directly from what they did. There's open warfare between Thieves' Guild factions on the streets, which the players can get involved in if they like (but they shouldn't yet see that it's a stacked-deck contest; the old GL's girlfriend is the one who's likely to win, largely because she is the one who - instead of calling for the PC's to be executed - offers them a fat bribe to join her side!) There are revenge attempts, officers of the law knocking on their doors late at night, grateful merchants giving them discounts in the stores, the whole nine yards.
In the long term, of course, you're preparing to take the plot in the same direction it was always headed.
What are you trying to achieve with this game? Are you:-
(a) Telling the players a story which you have already figured out in your head, or
(b) Running an interactive game in which the players' actions can alter the outcome.
Now, some DM's run games which are almost pure (a); they will act to preserve their carefully-planned plotlines no matter what spanners the PC's throw in the works. A bad DM of type "a" would have this NPC improbably rescued from death via some power or magic item, or suddenly introduce an evil NPC High Priest who raises his body (NB: this works once. If you do it often, the players will learn that when they kill an important NPC they should burn the corpse and scatter the ashes over the ocean, and this is what they will start to do).
However, this is a heavy-handed approach. The message that it sends to the players is "You cannot mess up my plotlines; if you try, I will make something happen to preserve the plot." It tells them that they cannot have any impact on important outcomes. If you're going to act in this way, there's no point playing it out as a game. The players might as well just sit around drinking beer while you tell them what happens.
A good DM of type "a" would permit the NPC to die, but would act to preserve his plotline in such a way that his actions were invisible to the players. The next person in line to run the Thieves' Guild would be a noticeably different NPC, but who nevertheless shared the old GL's aims and objectives (personally I'd make it the existing GL's girlfriend who's read his diary and knows what he had planned).
A DM of type "b" would react to the situation by immediately abandoning the plot. There's many sessions worth of mileage simply in administering the consequences of the PCs' actions.
For example, the result might be upheaval and turmoil in the Thieves' Guild as the different possible successors all scramble for leadership. Divide the Guild into two or three factions and set them warring among themselves; but one of the few things upon which the Guild can agree would be that the murderers of the old GL need to be caught and punished, so have them set a huge price on the PCs' heads. Of course, being aware that the former GL was butchered, these people will do their utmost to eliminate the PC's without the PC's ever becoming aware of who they are, let alone where to find them.
In the meantime, the Thieves' Guild informs the law of the murder and demand that the characters be brought to justice. Since they have the ear of a corrupt judge, a warrant is issued locally for the characters' arrest - in other words, they're on the run from the Guild and the law at the same time.
I advise combining these two approaches.
In the short term, abandon all hope of progressing the plot. The characters have done something big - so you should make them feel that they've affected things. They need to see big changes in the world that arise directly from what they did. There's open warfare between Thieves' Guild factions on the streets, which the players can get involved in if they like (but they shouldn't yet see that it's a stacked-deck contest; the old GL's girlfriend is the one who's likely to win, largely because she is the one who - instead of calling for the PC's to be executed - offers them a fat bribe to join her side!) There are revenge attempts, officers of the law knocking on their doors late at night, grateful merchants giving them discounts in the stores, the whole nine yards.
In the long term, of course, you're preparing to take the plot in the same direction it was always headed.
Gentlegamer
Adventurer
Are you playing Dragonlance? If not, OFF WITH HIS HEAD!
(The story is what the PCs do, not what you have planned.)
(The story is what the PCs do, not what you have planned.)
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