PCs Running away when they should

[nute]

The only way to (legally) know a critter's power is to either make the appropriate Knowledge check, or engage in combat.

Not necessarily. It depends on the campaign. In most fantasy worlds, even commoners, and simpletons know that dragons are dangerous creatures that burninate both peasant and countryside. So it'd be logical for players to see a dragon, and even if they couldn't gauge its age, to run for the hills.

In the same way, any creature with an ability requiring a save v. fear (dragons, certain demons, grandma in bikini season). Even if you make the save, running is a logical and valid choice. It's a scary mofo!

But reasonably, not every adventurer will recognize a bodak, or a heucuva ("Hey, Jovan! How come you haven't turned this skeleton yet?"). Players who keep metagaming to a minimum in these situations, as well as "Holy crap! It's an ogre! RUN!" ones tend to be better players.

 

[Jhamin]

My campaign is my best attempt at creating a world that exists beyond the characters actions. This means that there are heroes other than them out there clearing dungeons, and there are litches and warlords other than the ones they fight. There are orc tribes not worth bothering with and Orc Champions far beyond the party's ability to deal with. My players have expressed the opinion that knowing they aren't the only ones who do this stuff actually motivates them to outshine the other NPC parties they have run into.

I have lots of things in my world that are too nasty for the characters to fight. Lots. There are also zillions of things in the world the party could wipe out with one hand tied behind their backs.

I just make sure when planning a game that I dont force an encounter the party can't win. If they hear about a massive dragon in the mountains and insist on finding it, they will die. If they decide to kick in the door of the ancient necropolis, feared by sane men far and wide, they will die.

On the other hand, when a band of 15 orcs led by a 3rd level warrior starts making trouble, they know they have more than enough Mojo to just slap him down and scare away the ones they don't have to kill.

If they decide they need to head off a column of undead that left the necropolis before they get to a populated area, then that encounter is conveniently close to the appropriate challange rating.

As the party's average level increases, their role in the game setting expands. They know this. They can go after the Necropolis or Dragon in a few levels. IMHO It makes them appreciate their increasing power more when formerly impossible foes are finally defeated. A constant stream of CR appropriate bad guys would get really old, really quick. It also IMHO makes the game world feel alot less "alive" and alot more like a Squaresoft effort.

 

[Toj]

When I run a game I tell players they may run into things that they are not ready for, and that running or escaping may be the best option. I try and have an everchanging world were things are always happening behind the scenes. Sometimes players come upon things they are not prepared for, or not skilled enough to handle, but I always make sure there is a way out, whether than means talking your way out, or running away. I wouldn't purposely have a random encounter where an ancient wyrm attacks a party of 10th level heroes... but I have had a dragon be a random encounter... it was how the dice fell, and the players tend to like when this happens.

Recently, in my game, the party was causing problems with a Thieves guild. Three times the party made a lieutenant in the guild look bad. This lieutenant is about 4 levels higher than the party, and could take out any one member on his own fairly easy, but my point was to have the group fight him. Well the lieutenant was magically disguised and in the castle of the party... he was gaining some knowledge about them. There was only one party member at the castle (there were many other castle members however) and he decided to look around the castle with a magical talking skull he has that has truesight. I about flipped out, since I knew the PC would discover the lieutenant, which was a drow, and the PC was an elf. So the encounter happened in the basement and the two attacked eachother. In two rounds the PC knew he was in trouble and ran away. Luckily for him he was a monk and had a faster movement.

 

[ForceUser]

Like others have mentioned here, I try to create a world that the PCs inhabit instead of a series of appropriately-leveled challenges that magically scale with them as they level. This means that sometimes it's in their best interests to avoid combat, and that they shouldn't go into every encounter ready to scrap. Conversely, there are threats they can easily deal with if they turn their attention to them. The trick as a player in my campaign is to pay attention to the clues and choose their fights carefully. Most of the time this will see them through okay. Other times they will be in a disadvantaged situation no matter what they choose. That's okay, as long as you don't kill them outright. A powerful villain who dismisses the PCs as beneath him and allows them to tuck tail and run can become a great recurring adversary as the PCs keep saying to themselves "one day..."

One of my players is having a hard time adjusting. Twice now his character has died because he assumed I wouldn't attack the party with anything he couldn't handle CR-wise: in the very first encounter of the campaign he charged an owlbear as a 1st-level paladin; the second time he died the party (9 characters average level 4th) got jumped by a pair of trolls and he tried to go toe-to-toe with one with his 3rd-level fighter. He's understandibly frustrated. I'm sympathetic, but thems the breaks. When I describe a large ugly critter with long taloned arms that could rip a man apart, perhaps I mean what I say

 

[green slime]

I have a strange mix of problems.

I have one player whose characters that he plays are always doing extremely foolish things.

i.e. Standing ground against a high-level poison-using Blackguard, while poisoned with Con poison (dropped to 8 Con), while oodles of helpful priests are just 60 feet away (they can't reach him through the hordes of mooks, but he has tumble and spring attack so it shouldn't be a prob). He fails his second Fort save and dies of the Con damage...

And I have another fighter, a dwarf, in the same group, whose battlecry seems to be "RETREAT!" or "FLEE!!!". He inspires such panic in the group that battles become so much more difficult than neccessary, because they are all spending their resources fleeing while the enemy breathes fire on them, or shoots arrows in their hide.

The other day a battle against a cornugon went almost horribly wrong due to the to- and fro-ing through the wall of fire it threw up.

Sometimes I wish they would just stand still and fight. (except the first player, whose characters always seem to try heroics single-handedly and die horribly)

 

[Umbran]

Not necessarily. It depends on the campaign. In most fantasy worlds, even commoners, simpletons, and Republicans know that dragons are dangerous creatures that burninate both peasant and countryside. So it'd be logical for players to see a dragon, and even if they couldn't gauge its age, to run for the hills.

That's merely the case where the Knowledge check has a very low DC. It is still the DM's job to give that information to the players.

That's largely my point. It is very easy for the DM to say, "They should have run." The DM knows the critter's stats. The players generally don't. If they do, they are supposed to behave based upon the character's knowledge. And it's up to the DM to tell them what the character knows.

 

[nute]

That's merely the case where the Knowledge check has a very low DC. It is still the DM's job to give that information to the players.

That's largely my point. It is very easy for the DM to say, "They should have run." The DM knows the critter's stats. The players generally don't. If they do, they are supposed to behave based upon the character's knowledge. And it's up to the DM to tell them what the character knows.

Common knowledge shouldn't require a check. It should fall under those things everyone knows, like "swords are sharp" and "sounds of fizzy-pop-bang with flashing lights may indicate presence of a wizard".

 

[Capellan]

1) Is your gaming group good at assessing when you should flee?
2) Do you trust that your GM would never throw something at your that you couldn't handle?
3) Do you think it is feasible to withdraw from combat, or does your last chance to get away disappear when you close within 60" or so?

Survey says ...

1) No. Though they are more likely to do it when I'm playing than when I'm DMing. I am at heart a coward

2) Absolutely not.

3) Depends on the relative movement capabilities of the two sides.

 

[Arnwyn]

The PCs have certainly encountered creatures that are much too powerful for them in combat - as other posters have noted (and ForceUser put it wonderfully in his first sentence), I try to create a campaign world that the PCs inhabit.

When the PCs get an encounter with a far superior foe, what I *don't* do (or try not to do) is surprise/ambush them with it. The PCs will be able to see what's coming from a reasonable distance, and make their plans accordingly. (I might surprise them once or twice with a superior foe, but usually only with creatures that are slow as molasses, or lack ranged attacks.)

 

[pogre]

That's merely the case where the Knowledge check has a very low DC. It is still the DM's job to give that information to the players.

That's largely my point. It is very easy for the DM to say, "They should have run." The DM knows the critter's stats. The players generally don't. If they do, they are supposed to behave based upon the character's knowledge. And it's up to the DM to tell them what the character knows.

This is why I only put in encounters that they cannot handle that are obviously so. I usually let them see the monster with a clear path of avoidance or escape. This gets tougher as the group grows in level and sometimes I have said - you know this wizard by reputation and his power far exceed your own. I hate it when my party feels tricked when I am not trying to trick them.