PCs Running away when they should

DanMcS said:
Likewise, by the rules, it's really hard verging on impossible to escape on foot. The bad guys can stay right with you, or move up, double-team, and kill your lower-initiative comrades after the high-initiative PCs take flight. A party of monks and barbarians might pull it off, but your dwarves and heavy-armored buddies are screwed.

I also never felt D&D had appropriate rules to handle the situation. With the way movement rates are handled, you either tend to get away immediately or can't get away at all. Plus, I feel they are kind of boring as written.

I've been trying to think of ways to incorporate the Spycraft chase rules into D&D to help this issue. There are rules for obstacles, special maneuvers and dexterity there that make chases a viable gaming option. The rules also provide the chance for a bit of action to an area that was previously lacking.
 

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I've been DMing for the same group of people for coming up on three years, and their characters never run away from anything. I've been known to throw up my hands in dispair at them. So I was very happy Monday when I finally threw a foe at them that made them run away. It was a goblin army 3000 strong. I was half expecting them to stand and fight, idiots that they are. (But they're my idiots, you know? And I love them.)
 

Buttercup said:
I've been DMing for the same group of people for coming up on three years, and their characters never run away from anything. I've been known to throw up my hands in dispair at them. So I was very happy Monday when I finally threw a foe at them that made them run away. It was a goblin army 3000 strong. I was half expecting them to stand and fight, idiots that they are. (But they're my idiots, you know? And I love them.)

The thing about an army of 3000 goblins, against a party of like 4 PCs, is that they may THINK they outnumber you 750 to 1, but they really don't. See, there are only 8 squares surrounding any 1 square, so really, no matter how many of them there are, they can only outnumber you 8 to 1 at a time! When you think of it like that, it's almost stupid NOT to fight the army. They'll be totally overconfident!
 

IMC the PCs only flee from totally overwhelming odds, or if half the PCs are down or out (grab the bodies and teleport/planeshift).

It is extremely difficult to sucessfully flee without powerful magic. Unless the PCs are willing to abandon their slower comrades, or the enemy is extremly slow, or they have a huge unusual advantage, they won't be able to get away.
IME it is often easier to keep fighting and win than get away.

Geoff.
 

Tortoise said:
I play in Old One's campaign.

He rolls all combat rolls in the open and as a player I find that makes a huge difference in having a sense of needing to stand and fight or run off.

In my group it has the same effect, though for different reasons.

"He Hit me on a 3 ??? Holy :):):):)! RUN!"

;)
 

The adventurer

(To the tune of "the gambler" by Kenny Rogers)

In the middle of a dungeon, in the middle of nowhere
I met up with the wizard; we were both explorin the keep
Some monsters were a scarin somewhere in the darkness
Thats when they overtook us, and the door began to creak

He said "Son I made a life outa lootin these kinds of places
And throwin in with bards, and hearin monsters cry
And if you don't find me slayin, youd better be pickin up the paces
For haste is darn handy, and it'll probably save your life.

So I followed him full throttle, cause the dragon tried to swallow
Then we found somthing bigger yet, man it was gonna be a fight
We saw the goblin riot, this place loosin all direction
And he said "If your gonna play the game boy, you got to learn to play it right."

You got to know when to hold em, know when to cold em,
Know when to walk away, know when to run
You never count your money, when you're sittin in the dungeon
The'll be time enough for countin when the lootins done.

Every venturer knows that the secret to survivin
Is knowin what to throw away and knowin what to keep
Cause every lands sees winter, and every finds a chooser
And the best that you can hope for is to fly out of the keep.

And when the trogs finnished reakin, we escaped through the window
Repelled down the minarrette, and fled from the keep
And somewhere in the darkness the Shambler broke out reavin
But we knew in that castle there was gold to reap.

You got to know when to hold em, know when to cold em,
Know when to walk away, know when to run
You never count your money, when you're sittin in the dungeon
The'll be time enough for countin when the lootins done.


Alternate lyrics by yours truely...

Aaron.
 

My group is usually good at knowing when an encounter is too much for them to slug it out. I run a Planescape campaign, and to be honest if they went around thinking everything they come into conflict with, one way or another, is to fought and killed I'd be having a TPK every session with little torn scraps of character sheets scattered across the floor like so much fake snow at the mall at Christmas time.

And as a DM thats not what I'm looking for at all. But I trust my players to know when to talk, when to draw blades, and when to walk away and fight later. For instance, my board namesake, Shemeska the Marauder has been a long term foil for the group, and they're insects as far as she's concerned. If they went after her in a dark alley 6 on one, they've have maybe a 10% chance of surviving. And she's never alone, ever.

So yes, she's a horribly evil fiend and she gets her jollies by subtly tormenting them and usually insulting them when they don't scrap and bow and grovel in her presence, like she she expects most berks to do. But despite this, they know they can't kill her because she's too powerful, and even if they did kill her, her death might do more to damage Sigil than not. Who knows what she has contingent to happen upon her death... and until they know, thats a serious worry that heads off any action on their parts against her.

On a regular basis I throw encounters at the PC's one to two CR's above their level, if not more, and I expect them to act intelligently in the fight, or if they have to, to flee. They know what they can handle and what they can't.

The group has improved tenfold since the game started, both in RP ability and judging what to do in such situations. For example, they recently found themselves in conflict with members of the planar sect, The Illuminated, and have managed to pull themselves out of it. No combat involved, though I had the entire gatetown worth of sect members ready to go if they decided to go in with swords drawn and spells blazing.

Not all things can be fought immediately. Shemeska aside, she pales to the newly risen Oinoloth of the Wasting Tower of Khin-Oin IMC, Vorkannis the Ebon. Correct or not, they suspect him of being more than the reverse albino Arcanaloth he appears to be, and while he's very likely the personal match for any of the Lords of the 9 of Baator in a fight, and the nominal ruler of a race of fiends, they're biding their time till they can do something to take revenge for some of his actions. As pie in the sky as it sounds, in the meantime till they're that powerful or influencial, they content themselves to act against his agents or interests elsewhere, hoping to sting while staying just small enough targets themselves to avoid being squished.
 

DanMcS said:
The thing about an army of 3000 goblins, against a party of like 4 PCs, is that they may THINK they outnumber you 750 to 1, but they really don't. See, there are only 8 squares surrounding any 1 square, so really, no matter how many of them there are, they can only outnumber you 8 to 1 at a time! When you think of it like that, it's almost stupid NOT to fight the army. They'll be totally overconfident!

Hey, wait. Are you one of my players?:eek:
 

Here's a question for all you GMs out there. How would the NPC(s) know how capable the PCs are? Things like level, plusses, and special abilities is game knowledge, the critter won't (necessarily) know how good his opponent is.

In addition most animals are cautious when it comes to encounters. Those that aren't are usually rare, and only excessively belligerent to those of their own kind. Those species that act belligerent are usually bluffing, giving their opponent the impression they're more dangerous than they really are. The North American wolverine is an example of this. Recent studies have shown that the typical wolverine is more even tempered than his reputation, and when convinced you are no real threat can be down right agreeable.

(BTW, were you aware that tasmanian devils have been known to bond with their keepers?)

Predators are out to get a meal, not to engage in honorable combat. Your typical orcs are not going to line up before the party, they're more apt to ambush the intruders; using every dirty trick and strategem they can think of. Besides which, they will only ambush the PCs if certain they can win. If a band of orcs do line up before your group, be certain there are more out there, and that an equitable agreement can be reached that will leave folks alive even if currency or goods changes hands.

Please note that I'm not a fan of alignment. It's often misunderstood, and leads to unnatural behavior. I prefer the allegiance system from d20 Modern, which can be used for many of the same things alignment is now, but doesn't lead to the same abuses alignment does. On the same note, I don't see RPG worlds as being anything like literary worlds where behaviors are concerned. Let it put me this way, after a few generations of the hyper aggressive orcs getting slaughtered by adventureres, leaving the more 'even tempered' orcs to breed, Gruumsh is more apt to get responses like, "Ah, Gruumsh sir, my daughter just broke up with her boy friend, my eldest son is getting teased about his 'dinky willy' in gym class, and my baby has a bad case of colic. I'd love to join your big invasion of the human lands, but right now I've got too much going on." then the stereotypical "Loot! Burn! Kill! Compose filthy limericks!" response you get in some RPG settings. Besides which, it makes for a more interesting world.

In other worlds, folks should have a good excuse for fighting. Random encounters (if you use any) should rarely result in fisticuffs. Combats should be reserved for those times when the PCs meet folks how are ready to fight, protecting something or someone, or itching for battle. Late adolescents for example, or the villain's hirelings. (Sometimes one and the same thing.)

So keep the following in mind:

Do the NPcs have a reason for fighting?

Do your best to impress on the players the opposition just might be, or are, more than they can handle.

Give the PCs the opportunity to retreat. Even villains and evil guys need to husband and conserve resources, and caring for the wounded is resource intensive.

Have the NPCs retreat when they are getting the worst of it.

Remember that a simple diversion can be a greater aid to retreating than all the Teleports in the world.

Hope this helps.
 

Buttercup said:
I've been DMing for the same group of people for coming up on three years, and their characters never run away from anything. I've been known to throw up my hands in dispair at them. So I was very happy Monday when I finally threw a foe at them that made them run away. It was a goblin army 3000 strong. I was half expecting them to stand and fight, idiots that they are. (But they're my idiots, you know? And I love them.)
In the Song of Roland, Roland and his allies make a last stand at Roncesvalles against an army of ~30-50,000 paynim, and slaughter 10,000 of them before finally being overwhelmed.

In one of the climactic battle scenes of the recent wuxia film _Hero_ (www.herothemovie.com), two uber-badass swordspersons storm the Qin Emperor's palace, which is garrisoned by 3,000 elite guards. The guards are cut down like chaff before a scythe.

Heck, even in the relatively low-powered LotR movies, there are plenty of scenes of heroes taking on armies. In FotR Aragorn single-handedly takes on a battalion of orcs and slaughters stacks of them. In TtT, Gimli and Aragorn take on more orcs at the gates to Helm's Deep.

Huge battles featuring ultra-powerful characters wading through armies of mooks are a staple of myth and legend, if not modern fantasy. It's one of my dreams as a DM to eventually run a fight pitting thousands of orcs against a group of 20th level PCs. I'm not expecting the orcs to win. It's all about extravagance.
 
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