PCs Running away when they should

[mythusmage]

In the stories ancients hoary,
Knew defeat was generally the price of glory,
Still they fight in masses gory,
Yes, they are full of ose.
---Dorsai are Full of Ose, author unknown (by me at least)

 

[hong]

In the stories ancients hoary,
Knew defeat was generally the price of glory,
Still they fight in masses gory,
Yes, they are full of ose.
---Dorsai are Full of Ose, author unknown (by me at least)

SLAYERS LYRIC POST OF THE WEEK: BREEZE

(slightly delayed)

Vocals: Megumi Hayashibara


Takai sora wo tori ni natte tobitai
Haruka tooi kibou wo mezash<b></b>ite
Miorosh<b></b>itara chiisana jibun datte
Tada gamushara ikiteru darou ka

Konna fuu ni ima wo mitsumeru koto dekiru nara
Kizutsuku koto mo naku, asu mo kowakunai ...

* Kaze ni notte yume no kanata e tonde yukitai
Yuuki to iu tsubasa wo tsukete
Tori ni natte miorosu kokoru mochi tsuzuketai
RIARU na hibi ni makenai yo

Kewashii michi kemono ga erabu you ni
Kagi waketara korobu koto mo nai

Demo ningen nante mayowasareteru bakari de
Kodoku to tatakatta tsuyosa wo motanai

Kaze ni notte yume no kanata e kitto yukitai
Yuuki to iu hitomi korash<b></b>ite
Kemono yori mo kewashii michi wo aruite mo mada
Akiramenai kokoro nakusazu ni

Chippoke na jibun wo mitsukeru koto dekiru nara
Kizutsuku koto mo naku asu mo kowakunai ...

* repeat

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

Does anyone's group have well-organized plans about how to get out of trouble?

Yeah trip the dwarf and run like the dickens...

I have one party on here that should run from practical everything cause we are all short on equipment... Some of the fighters have no weapons, other has no armor, and the wizard has no Spell Book. Yet we never run, and I often wonder if punches are being pulled. Even worse no one can just make a new character to toss into the fray, as it simply wouldn't work for new people to show up.

 

[galaga88]

All the times as a PC, in which I've ran from a combat or encounter, the other players called me a coward, and resorted to name-calling. If I really played anymore, I'd know how I dealt with it nowadays.

 

[S'mon]

My group seems pretty good at knowing when to run away - eg when the BBEG kills an NPC cohort in 1 round with half his attacks to spare. As per 3e DMG, some proportion of encounters should be +5 EL or more to party's level, making retreat usually the best option.

 

[S'mon]

My campaign is my best attempt at creating a world that exists beyond the characters actions. This means that there are heroes other than them out there clearing dungeons, and there are litches and warlords other than the ones they fight. There are orc tribes not worth bothering with and Orc Champions far beyond the party's ability to deal with. My players have expressed the opinion that knowing they aren't the only ones who do this stuff actually motivates them to outshine the other NPC parties they have run into.

I have lots of things in my world that are too nasty for the characters to fight. Lots. There are also zillions of things in the world the party could wipe out with one hand tied behind their backs.

I just make sure when planning a game that I dont force an encounter the party can't win. If they hear about a massive dragon in the mountains and insist on finding it, they will die. If they decide to kick in the door of the ancient necropolis, feared by sane men far and wide, they will die.

On the other hand, when a band of 15 orcs led by a 3rd level warrior starts making trouble, they know they have more than enough Mojo to just slap him down and scare away the ones they don't have to kill.

If they decide they need to head off a column of undead that left the necropolis before they get to a populated area, then that encounter is conveniently close to the appropriate challange rating.

As the party's average level increases, their role in the game setting expands. They know this. They can go after the Necropolis or Dragon in a few levels. IMHO It makes them appreciate their increasing power more when formerly impossible foes are finally defeated. A constant stream of CR appropriate bad guys would get really old, really quick. It also IMHO makes the game world feel alot less "alive" and alot more like a Squaresoft effort.

You sound like a great GM. This is also what I aim for in my own campaign world. The current PC group is 10th level or so, so they're near the top of the heap in terms of active adventuring groups - they know they're a valuable resource to their patron. OTOH the real movers & shakers in the world are typically level 15+, and there are individual entities well beyond that.

 

[S'mon]

The thing about an army of 3000 goblins, against a party of like 4 PCs, is that they may THINK they outnumber you 750 to 1, but they really don't. See, there are only 8 squares surrounding any 1 square, so really, no matter how many of them there are, they can only outnumber you 8 to 1 at a time! When you think of it like that, it's almost stupid NOT to fight the army. They'll be totally overconfident!

IMC goblins use bows! Unless they have non-reducible DR, no PC can stand up to hundreds of arrows, round after round. A goblin army out in the open can be attacked by long-range aerial attack - fireballs etc - but these spell attacks run out quickly; they're good for harrassment & attrition (which can cause demoralisation) but not for winning a pitched battle. A goblin army in caverns or forests is much better protected.

 

[S'mon]

In the Song of Roland, Roland and his allies make a last stand at Roncesvalles against an army of ~30-50,000 paynim, and slaughter 10,000 of them before finally being overwhelmed.

In one of the climactic battle scenes of the recent wuxia film _Hero_ (www.herothemovie.com), two uber-badass swordspersons storm the Qin Emperor's palace, which is garrisoned by 3,000 elite guards. The guards are cut down like chaff before a scythe.

Heck, even in the relatively low-powered LotR movies, there are plenty of scenes of heroes taking on armies. In FotR Aragorn single-handedly takes on a battalion of orcs and slaughters stacks of them. In TtT, Gimli and Aragorn take on more orcs at the gates to Helm's Deep.

Huge battles featuring ultra-powerful characters wading through armies of mooks are a staple of myth and legend, if not modern fantasy. It's one of my dreams as a DM to eventually run a fight pitting thousands of orcs against a group of 20th level PCs. I'm not expecting the orcs to win. It's all about extravagance.

I kinda agree with this. I don't think much of the Song of Roland (Frankish posturing glorifying an ignominious retreat) but there are plenty of legends where individual 'high-level' heroes are the equal of several hundred 'mooks' - Arthur is said to have personally slain over 900 Saxons at Badon Hill, for instance. Unless the mooks are fanatics, they won't line up to be slaughtered, though. IMC on a typical large-scale battlefield, over the course of several hours a Fighter PC will have to take a move action to attack an NPC, and will rarely get to Full Attack and Great Cleave, so he'll typically be killing 1 man/round (and I start requiring Endurance checks after 50 rounds of combat).

A platoon of NPC elite fighters might choose to engage and melee a 20th level PC fighter, but most grunt NPC melee troops will flee the F20's immediate area rather than fight a hopeless battle. The big threat is from companies of missile troops - 200 archers pumping out 200 arrows/round averages 10 hits on the PC fighter, for around 50 damage/round (assuming d8 with the occasional crit), so such formations need to be dealt with ASAP.

Edit: The result is, IMC a 20th level party might well take on an army of 3000 goblins in a pitched battle with a reasonable hope of success. They'd be foolish to take on the 200,000 strong Mongali Horde, though. Extravagance works both ways.

 

[Numion]

So I'm interested in your thoughts:
1) Is your gaming group good at assessing when you should flee?

When I DM they aren't. They never run until half the group is dead.

When I play .. well, me character is the only one who hasn't died, and always prepares Word of Recall. 'nuff said.

2) Do you trust that your GM would never throw something at your that you couldn't handle?

No, wacky CRs can lead to this even unintentionally.

3) Do you think it is feasible to withdraw from combat, or does your last chance to get away disappear when you close within 60" or so?

It's very feasible. Prepare new spells and try again tomorrow.

 

[Numion]

All the times as a PC, in which I've ran from a combat or encounter, the other players called me a coward, and resorted to name-calling. If I really played anymore, I'd know how I dealt with it nowadays.

It's quite usual that when someone runs from combat in our games he's ridicules, called coward and everyone (even the friggin DM) makes chicken sounds. I do it myself too, but I've got no qualms about running from combat myself.

There are a lot jokes about the Brave Dwarf in our group .. because dwarves are supposed to be brave, but usually the dwarf is the first to flee