PCs that are too big for their britches...do they live or die?

[Oryan77]

I forget if you play 4e [MENTION=18701]Oryan77[/MENTION] but this could have something to do with your current issue...the players learning complacency (and being slapstick) because they aren't challenged enough.

Naw, I run a 3.5 game using Pathfinder classes converted to 3.5 (my own homebrew). Luckily, not a single player in our group is a fan of 4e. So they don't have any expectations or gripes for how I use the rules.

They actually have made comments about how difficult my encounters are. Not in a bad way. It was just an observation they had in regards to how I run encounters. Apparently, even when I use low CR creatures, the encounter is still tough. I like to think that I'm a good tactician and also good at multitasking with many NPCs at once. I can finish offf 10+ NPC initiatives faster than two players can finish up their actions. So I think they are being challenged more than enough. I actually threw lots of low CR creatures at them at once last session just so they can flex their muscles and feel tough by stomping all over them. I noticed they needed a pick-me-up like that.

 

[pickin_grinnin]

I would have the bad guy do whatever is in character for the bad guy to do. If that means killing the character who is mouthing off, so be it. I don't coddle players. Their choices need to have consequences.

 

[innerdude]

One thing I love about Savage Worlds is how much easier it is to instill fear into the PCs in situations like the OP. In SW, 3 wounds is 3 wounds, that's all you can take before you're out. Whittle down the party to 1 or 2 action points / bennies per player before the big boss fight, and watch just how carefully they tread. Knowing you can be killed on a single roll makes a big difference in that regard.

 

[MarkB]

1) At least the players are willing to listen to the monologue. I've known of groups that would insist on attacking while the villain was talking, totally ruining the tension. Just food for thought.

To be fair, that's largely about genre-savviness. As players, we know that the villain will throw his plan into motion at the culmination of his monologue, so when we're facing a monologuing BBEG, the monologue tends to take on a semblance of being a countdown, with our only hope of disrupting his plans being to act before he gets to the "throw the lever" point in his speech.

 

[Quickleaf]

To be fair, that's largely about genre-savviness. As players, we know that the villain will throw his plan into motion at the culmination of his monologue, so when we're facing a monologuing BBEG, the monologue tends to take on a semblance of being a countdown, with our only hope of disrupting his plans being to act before he gets to the "throw the lever" point in his speech.

Having the PCs jumping the gun lead to bad consequences (such as missing out on critical information) and/or an accelerated time table for the villain's plan should nip this in the bud.

 

[Afrodyte]

May I suggest: "Are you sure you want to say that?"

Alternatively: "What's your Wisdom again?"

 

[haakon1]

If I were to roleplay the NPC appropriately, he'd just slaughter the disrespectful idiot and be done with it, turning to the other PCs and saying, "anything you want to add?" I just figure that doing so would eliminate part of the fun for the players since it seems to be an enjoyable pastime to belittle anything that a powerful BBEG would say. Still, it does make me feel like the bad guys are pushovers when I'm trying to make a scenario feel a bit scary in order to put the PCs on edge.

My approach is to ALWAYS roleplay the NPC appropriately. My world doesn't owe them special treatment because they are PC's.

As a player, I get bored if I'm too spoiled and it's too obvious I have plot protection. Let your players experience the thrill of victory, and the agony of defeat -- not just OSHA approved, level-appropriate, PC-safe situations with no real threat.

Obviously, your style may (and does) differ, but if you want encouragement to try a different style, here it is.

 

[haakon1]

An interesting element to consider regarding situations like this is: where does power lie? In a milieu that at least nods toward "realism" power lies in political structures. The king is powerful because the barons follow him because he's powerful (with some Divine Right thrown in). There is no need for the king to be a high level badass because the ability to win battles is single combat is not the defining factor of civil authority.

I agree. But I would implement this more along "realism" lines . . .

King: You shall go to the dungeon of despair and bring me the McGuffin. You may keep any other treasure you find, and you shall have my thanks.

PC: What's in it for me?

King: My thanks can take many forms. We shall discuss what is appropriate upon your safe return with the McGuffin.

PC: That's not good enough. We need money, and we need to know how much before we decide if we're going to do this for you.

King: This quest is for the defense of the realm. The decision is mine, and it has been made. You will go, and you will have my thanks, if you do not try my patience further. Be gone with you!

PC: Wait.

Guards: Time to go. Come with us.

PC: Hey, you can't order me around. I'm the Wizard who killed the blue dragon of Ohm!

Guards: Move now. Last warning.

And if they fight, well, maybe they can kill the king and his guards, but they are in big, big trouble with rest of the realm. You could try and beat up the British Prime Minister, and maybe if you're Rambo and friends, you can succeed at taking out his bodyguards. But you'll be persona non grata with pretty much everyone in the civilized world who knows you did it, especially if you did it for a punk reason like he dissed you . . . most likely you'll be hunted down and killed in short order.

"Unnecessary violence in the apprehension of Jake and Elwood Blues, has been approved."

 

[Janx]

I'm not sure where the idea that a King doesn't have combat skills ever came up. Medieval kings led their troops in battle. Heck, go watch Henry the 8th. He had some balls.

Sure, there's some point in a PC's career where they should out-level the King. But if the first half of the campaign, not so much..


I liked the example from page 1 of Prince John. It makes a core point that you need to SHOW your players why the NPC deserves. Saying "this is Prince John, he deserves respect" isn't going to cut it. The Prince John example has the PCs encountering the results of his bad-donkeyness long before the PCs meet the man himself.

You need to prelude direct introduction to the King with examples of him Ned Starking a wilding, or fending off a dragon attack. The party needs to SEE this guy is Level 12, while they are merely Level3, before they ever meet him.

Also, skip the delegation to flunkies for disrespect handling. That's just setup for an easier fight for the PCs, and further lowers his respect level by needing somebody else to fight his battles for him. have the king simply walk up close and jam a dagger into the offending PC's eye for serious damage. Then his guards move in to hold people back before it turns into a full party combat. People who kick butt do their own butt kicking.

 

[Janx]

To be fair, that's largely about genre-savviness. As players, we know that the villain will throw his plan into motion at the culmination of his monologue, so when we're facing a monologuing BBEG, the monologue tends to take on a semblance of being a countdown, with our only hope of disrupting his plans being to act before he gets to the "throw the lever" point in his speech.

I think it was in Machete Kills, where the BBEG revealed that he launched his plan an before his monologue/defeat even began..