barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
Short PDFs are a rip-off by greedy publishers!
Well, except mine.
Well, except mine.
PDFs - Does size matter?
Roudi
First Post
I had touched on this point in my original post in the thread:GMSkarka said:
I think, in our previous discussion of the topic, we had all agreed that small PDFs are only ripoffs if they are grossly overpriced. You very wisely responded to such criticisms of your own products by offering a subscription, and I even complemented you for it. So, the issue has come up, but I think you'll find that very few posters on this board hold the blind opinion of "SMALL PDF BAD!!!" anymore.Roudi said:
SMAll PDF BAD!!!
that's my story and i'm sticking to it. not going to start another argument about it.
these threads come up from time to time, and it all ends up the same. small pdf == higher margins with less work. it's not some mystical formula that is beyond the grasp of buyers or publishers, it's simple. why do more work and charge less (bulk rate) when you can do less and charge more (premium rate).
some publishers choose bulk rate for their products and some don't. i rather dig the ones that do, as i feel SATISFIED at the end of my purchase that while i may not use all of the material, i at least got what i paid for. not so with short products (for me at least)...i end up seeing 1 class (which i can't get a preview for because it's so small and a preview would end up being 90% of the class anyways), and if i find i don't like it...i suddenly wasted my money on something that i'll never use, as opposed to wasting my money on something i MAY not use, but at least get an hour or two stimulation out of reading.
this is in no way a bash on any 1 (2, 3, 4, 5, or even 6) publishers. if you feel i'm singling you out, give it up. i've had really good and really bad experiences from publishers who publish both larger and smaller pdf's, so i'm not going to write off any 1 publisher for putting out some smaller products if they put out something good and worth my hard earned cash.
So, to help out and not directly bash anyone in particular:
Adamant - Hot Pursuit was pretty good. I'm kind of unhappy that the foot chase addon that was talked about by fans of the original book was released as a sale product instead of an enhancement to the original, or even a nice freebie to those who purchased the original (back in the day, some d20 publishers did neat things like have some free small products around just so you could check them out). I also purchased the GM guide to pulp, even though I had written the entire line off because of 1) small class based products instead of a nice full product with a bunch of classes so i wouldn't have to run around trying to collect 15 $2 pdf's and have an additional bunch of files in my already confusing pdf folder, and 2) something another poster touched on before. I took a chance on the publisher because I thought I found a good value for my money, an I am really happy with the product, and was worth the ching for me.
LPJ Design - I've crapped in a few of Louis's threads about his short pdf's that just don't do my wallet any good. I purchased Haven from him, and was pretty well satisfied even if it didn't have bookmarks (which still ticks me off...come on people, bookmarks are one of the BIG advantages of PDF's).
Ronin Arts - I haven't purchased anything from Phil because I won't buy short PDF's, and having to wait 6 months (or longer) for the individual sales to die off enough to put together a compilation means that I have to wait until a collection is put together, that by the time I get it is already 'old material.' If bunches of products were put out in collections as they come out, I'd likely purchase them...but the thing that I don't want (see above) is having about a thousand pdf files in my pdf folder that i have to search forever through because I have 800 3 page pdf's in it.
Like I said, I'm not bashing anyone. I'm stating my opinion to the original poster and hopefully we can all leave it at that.
that's my story and i'm sticking to it. not going to start another argument about it.
these threads come up from time to time, and it all ends up the same. small pdf == higher margins with less work. it's not some mystical formula that is beyond the grasp of buyers or publishers, it's simple. why do more work and charge less (bulk rate) when you can do less and charge more (premium rate).
some publishers choose bulk rate for their products and some don't. i rather dig the ones that do, as i feel SATISFIED at the end of my purchase that while i may not use all of the material, i at least got what i paid for. not so with short products (for me at least)...i end up seeing 1 class (which i can't get a preview for because it's so small and a preview would end up being 90% of the class anyways), and if i find i don't like it...i suddenly wasted my money on something that i'll never use, as opposed to wasting my money on something i MAY not use, but at least get an hour or two stimulation out of reading.
this is in no way a bash on any 1 (2, 3, 4, 5, or even 6) publishers. if you feel i'm singling you out, give it up. i've had really good and really bad experiences from publishers who publish both larger and smaller pdf's, so i'm not going to write off any 1 publisher for putting out some smaller products if they put out something good and worth my hard earned cash.
So, to help out and not directly bash anyone in particular:
Adamant - Hot Pursuit was pretty good. I'm kind of unhappy that the foot chase addon that was talked about by fans of the original book was released as a sale product instead of an enhancement to the original, or even a nice freebie to those who purchased the original (back in the day, some d20 publishers did neat things like have some free small products around just so you could check them out). I also purchased the GM guide to pulp, even though I had written the entire line off because of 1) small class based products instead of a nice full product with a bunch of classes so i wouldn't have to run around trying to collect 15 $2 pdf's and have an additional bunch of files in my already confusing pdf folder, and 2) something another poster touched on before. I took a chance on the publisher because I thought I found a good value for my money, an I am really happy with the product, and was worth the ching for me.
LPJ Design - I've crapped in a few of Louis's threads about his short pdf's that just don't do my wallet any good. I purchased Haven from him, and was pretty well satisfied even if it didn't have bookmarks (which still ticks me off...come on people, bookmarks are one of the BIG advantages of PDF's).
Ronin Arts - I haven't purchased anything from Phil because I won't buy short PDF's, and having to wait 6 months (or longer) for the individual sales to die off enough to put together a compilation means that I have to wait until a collection is put together, that by the time I get it is already 'old material.' If bunches of products were put out in collections as they come out, I'd likely purchase them...but the thing that I don't want (see above) is having about a thousand pdf files in my pdf folder that i have to search forever through because I have 800 3 page pdf's in it.
Like I said, I'm not bashing anyone. I'm stating my opinion to the original poster and hopefully we can all leave it at that.
barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
What do people mean by "short"? Are we talking less than 10 pages? Less than 25 pages? Less than 5 pages?
To take your example, jez, there was some consideration in the early days of On Foot as to how we should release it. At that time we didn't know for sure how big it would be, so it wasn't clear if it should be free or not.
At (I think) twelve pages, it seems a lot to ask of a company like Adamant (not to mention a starving artist like myself) to put it out for free. Maybe it would have been the better choice, but I don't think so.
Had it been a five-page document, I might have felt differently. And to be honest, I feel like ten pages is borderline small for a PDF product. It wasn't an OBVIOUS decision, at least. But making it for free doesn't solve your problem of zillions of PDFs, anyway. I agree, though, it's nice.
To take your example, jez, there was some consideration in the early days of On Foot as to how we should release it. At that time we didn't know for sure how big it would be, so it wasn't clear if it should be free or not.
At (I think) twelve pages, it seems a lot to ask of a company like Adamant (not to mention a starving artist like myself) to put it out for free. Maybe it would have been the better choice, but I don't think so.
Had it been a five-page document, I might have felt differently. And to be honest, I feel like ten pages is borderline small for a PDF product. It wasn't an OBVIOUS decision, at least. But making it for free doesn't solve your problem of zillions of PDFs, anyway. I agree, though, it's nice.
barsoomcore said:What do people mean by "short"? Are we talking less than 10 pages? Less than 25 pages? Less than 5 pages?
To take your example, jez, there was some consideration in the early days of On Foot as to how we should release it. At that time we didn't know for sure how big it would be, so it wasn't clear if it should be free or not.
At (I think) twelve pages, it seems a lot to ask of a company like Adamant (not to mention a starving artist like myself) to put it out for free. Maybe it would have been the better choice, but I don't think so.
Had it been a five-page document, I might have felt differently. And to be honest, I feel like ten pages is borderline small for a PDF product. It wasn't an OBVIOUS decision, at least. But making it for free doesn't solve your problem of zillions of PDFs, anyway. I agree, though, it's nice.
For me, short is probably 32 pages or less. While the foot pursuit addon came out to 12 pages, I won't justify buying it because to be honest...12 pages is something I could put out in a cram session the day before a big report was due way back in the old days of high school. It's an addon, and because it's small, it now requires me to either deposit money into an account, or pile on a bunch of other crap just to meet minumum order requirements. Likely, I won't be in that position for a long time, and the foot chase supplement will probably never hit my basket. Nothing personal, it's just not for me. I liked Hot Pursuit though.
Where I see my big problem is the sudden (or what WAS sudden at the time) price hike in products. You could get a good 60 or so page product for about $5, now you're lucky if you can get 30 for that price. And when you add up the cost of 3-4 of the $1-2 pdf's, you might be lucky to get 20 pages for $5. While page count per dollar is not the 'end all system of justifying a game purchase' it does show that things have changed drastically, but I haven't seen a good reason WHY prices have suddenly risen. Gas prices are higher because of wars, greedy oil companies, increased tranportation costs, etc. You can see WHY gas is more, even if you don't believe in it. I haven't seen Adobe price go up. Internet access prices aren't going up. RPGNow isn't taking twice the profit it was last year. So why the increase?
Back to gas for a second...generally, gas is pretty much the same no matter where you go in town. Sure, someone may have it a few cents cheaper over here, but you have to drive further to get it. In the RPG production world, that's not the case. It is obvious that some companies are charging more for the amount of content they are producing. And to top it all off, back end prices are cheaper (smaller product == less hours put in, chances are less artwork and less layout costs), and then they make you take it in 1 gallon increments instead of letting you fill your tank on RPG goodness.
Value is a percieved notion. Some people see value in short products. I see value in buying bulk. It's a difference of opinion, but one which reflects my purchasing habits. If I can't see the value in what I'm buying, I'll just choose not to.
TheAuldGrump
First Post
Hmmm, I tend to prefer either longer or more specific PDFs.
I have had only one that I considered a waste of magnetic media (and it was the only dud that I have gotten from that company, the others have been very good, and I gather an updated version will see the light of day sometime or another).
Mostly I prefer longer works, some that I think are some of the best bargains in gaming - Expeditious Retreat jumping up and down screaming for attention in this regard. (They also use the truly evil scam of useful demos that make you want to buy the product...)
Then there are those smaller ones that fit a need like a glove fits the hand, I needed chase rules and they were there, I needed monsters and magic from Gaelic myth and they were there. And one of the nice things about PDFs - I can get them when I need them! (Like for a game on St. Patrick's Day...)
The really small ones that I buy tend to be stuff that I will order to bring my total to the minimum order for RPGNow. No real clunkers, but not stuff that I use every game.
The Auld Grump
I have had only one that I considered a waste of magnetic media (and it was the only dud that I have gotten from that company, the others have been very good, and I gather an updated version will see the light of day sometime or another).
Mostly I prefer longer works, some that I think are some of the best bargains in gaming - Expeditious Retreat jumping up and down screaming for attention in this regard.
(They also use the truly evil scam of useful demos that make you want to buy the product...)Then there are those smaller ones that fit a need like a glove fits the hand, I needed chase rules and they were there, I needed monsters and magic from Gaelic myth and they were there. And one of the nice things about PDFs - I can get them when I need them! (Like for a game on St. Patrick's Day...)
The really small ones that I buy tend to be stuff that I will order to bring my total to the minimum order for RPGNow. No real clunkers, but not stuff that I use every game.
The Auld Grump
barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
I don't know for sure, but I suspect that was a reality check on what the sales figures were like. There's always a juggling act, a bit of risk-taking when you try to set a price point -- there's only so many sales you're going to make, so you need to set a price that at least has you making a profit (or breaking even). I suspect (and this is rank speculation) that a few years ago people had expectations for their products, and they set their prices accordingly. The reality wasn't as rosy as they thought, and so there was a price increase as people looked for the right price that would bring them sustainable revenue.jezter6 said:
I have no data to back that up, but it makes sense to me. And it also jibes with my problems in starting up my own product line -- I have no idea what sales are going to be like, so trying to decide what the product should look like, how much I can afford to spend on creating it and how low I can set the price are all complete guesses on my part. And if I'm wrong, I'll have to either make adjustments or throw in the towel. Time will tell.
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BASHMAN
Basic Action Games
As an online publisher, I will clue you in to why this trend will increase.
The shorter the page count of a product, the more profit you make/page published. I for instance have a product for sale called the 1 sheet dungeon that is only 2 pages long (it is basically a really compactly written 17 room dungeon crawl for 4 2nd level PCs). I sell it on RPGnow for 1.25. It took me less than a day to put the whole product together, and it even was rated 5/5 stars!
I have another product with 30 pages selling for 6.00. That is 1 dollar per 5 pages, or 20 cents per page, each page representing an increasing ammount of time & labor to create the product. The 2 page product makes me 62 cents per page.
Second: the shorter the page count, the faster I can release new products. The more products you release, the more you keep your name "in the air", on the front page of the rpgnow website. Note, that your products always have links at the bottom to your older products. So the more new stuff you make, the more free adverstising you also get for your older stuff. Also, the more products you make, the more chance there is of getting a first time customer, which increases your chances of having a repeat customer (assuming you are making quality products and not garbage).
Third: Because they are cheap, more people are willing to "impulse buy" and take a chance on your product than they would if it were say 10 dollars and 50 pages.
Basically, shorter products are better for business.
The shorter the page count of a product, the more profit you make/page published. I for instance have a product for sale called the 1 sheet dungeon that is only 2 pages long (it is basically a really compactly written 17 room dungeon crawl for 4 2nd level PCs). I sell it on RPGnow for 1.25. It took me less than a day to put the whole product together, and it even was rated 5/5 stars!
I have another product with 30 pages selling for 6.00. That is 1 dollar per 5 pages, or 20 cents per page, each page representing an increasing ammount of time & labor to create the product. The 2 page product makes me 62 cents per page.
Second: the shorter the page count, the faster I can release new products. The more products you release, the more you keep your name "in the air", on the front page of the rpgnow website. Note, that your products always have links at the bottom to your older products. So the more new stuff you make, the more free adverstising you also get for your older stuff. Also, the more products you make, the more chance there is of getting a first time customer, which increases your chances of having a repeat customer (assuming you are making quality products and not garbage).
Third: Because they are cheap, more people are willing to "impulse buy" and take a chance on your product than they would if it were say 10 dollars and 50 pages.
Basically, shorter products are better for business.
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