• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

People don't optimize

However, unoptimized choices can inspire creativity where optimized choices would not.

There was actually a school of art founded in that basic idea: the artists used only the materials found discarded outside the studios of other, more established mainstream artists. Some of the old guard became aware of this and started manipulating thë process, doing things like throwing out nothing but partially used tubes of paint in various shades of yellow for a few weeks.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

But I think our little dialog about your PC versus my expectation shows that one guy's idea of weak, ain't the same as another's, let alone, optimized.

Obviously, I didn't consider him weak. And he must have had something on the ball since he was a popular PC.

But just as obviously, some people would, just based on the 2 low stats.
 

I optimize because fiddling with the mechanics to perfect a concept is a large part of the fun for me. It's why a deep system like 3.5 or Pathfinder can hold my attention for years, whereas a fun but shallow system like Savage Worlds can't keep me engaged for a long period of time.

I don't try and break the game or overshadow everyone else, but figuring out the best feat to take, or the most effective enchantment to put on my weapon, is fun for me.

I also tend to treat mechanical efficiency and RP as two separate animals in most cases. I can come up with social/emotional challenges for my characters without needing to handicap them when the fighting starts.
 

If mechanical optimization gets in the way of interesting characters and fun play, it is, in my opinion, a fault of system and its authors, not players. It's a problem that comes from inconsistent design and giving people contradictory directions.

The game focuses on combat; most of the page count in every book and adventure is about combat. The game makes the combat lethal for characters - they are expected to win to stay in play. So players build characters to win and stay alive. What else would they do?

The game presents character development as a process of gaining power. It gives a lot of "blocks" that represent various facets of power and that may be used to build characters. So players play with these blocks and find interesting combinations. Isn't it natural?

Flaws are weak points that may bring defeat. Isn't it obvious that they will be avoided?

If one adds to that "But flawed characters are more interesting. And good stories are not about being powerful and winning easily." - he may be right, but it directly contradicts what the game already presented.



And it's not an unsolvable problem.

Some games make defeat interesting, instead of fatal (eg. Mouse Guard), or even make failure into a major driving force for character's long term plans (Nobilis). Because of that, being powerful enough to win without risk stops being a priority.

Some games focus on winning, but are simple enough that there are no hidden combos and hidden traps. Character creation is just choosing what to be good at, what to be average at and what to be weak at, no system mastery required.

Some games (eg. FATE) make flaws and vulnerabilities a crucial part of resource management. Instead of something to be avoided, they become something to be treasured; being weak at some point lets one get the spotlight later.

Finaly, some games (eg. Dogs in the Vineyard) have systems that could be abused and optimized, but they make it clear, in many places in the text, that they have a different focus, they are not about winning and will not work if treated this way.

In such games, the system helps in creating interesting characters and interesting stories, instead of detracting from it.
 

And it's not an unsolvable problem.

Some games make defeat interesting, instead of fatal (eg. Mouse Guard), or even make failure into a major driving force for character's long term plans (Nobilis). Because of that, being powerful enough to win without risk stops being a priority.

Some games focus on winning, but are simple enough that there are no hidden combos and hidden traps. Character creation is just choosing what to be good at, what to be average at and what to be weak at, no system mastery required.

Some games (eg. FATE) make flaws and vulnerabilities a crucial part of resource management. Instead of something to be avoided, they become something to be treasured; being weak at some point lets one get the spotlight later.

Finaly, some games (eg. Dogs in the Vineyard) have systems that could be abused and optimized, but they make it clear, in many places in the text, that they have a different focus, they are not about winning and will not work if treated this way.

In such games, the system helps in creating interesting characters and interesting stories, instead of detracting from it.

There is something else that the example systems (FATE, Dogs in the Vineyard, Nobilis, Mouse Guard) have in common - almost no one but the hardest of hard core RPGers have even heard of them, much less play them. No system like that ever seems to be enduring and to capture the imagination of a large number players and story tellers in the long run. Maybe that is the result of obscurity, but as much as I love the design of those games from the perspective of a designer I find that's not what I run and play. And, as much as I like the designs of those games, I'm not sure I would care much to play them especially for a lengthy time. Partly this is because I think that the rules have glaring problems as well. Partly this is because I think that there is something inherently incoherent in having a game where you try to pretend that it isn't about 'winning' (at some level).

In RPG's, 'winning' is always inherent to the game. You can tell who the winners are because they accumulate resources of some sort. Because almost all RPGs let you accumulate resources, players that make the decision to accumulate resources (as opposed to whatever behavior doesn't allow optimal accumulation of resources) end up with more and more narrative control. And thus, over time the game always becomes dominated by the optimizer - even if it is a 'story based' game - because it is the optimized character that can grab spot light, determine goals, provide resolution, and so forth. The less optimized character ends up becoming something other than a protagonist.

In the long run, a game that doesn't recognize this doesn't work. Games that don't deal with potential for character growth to translate into greater narrative control, don't work as long term campaigns. They may be great for one shots or minicampaigns, but you don't invest 100 or 500 hours into playing them through a single continious story the way you do with the games that supposedly, by being gamist or simulationist and encouraging 'good characters' are not focused on creating a 'good story'. But I would suggest that for the most part 'good story' is something of a myth here. Very few if any RPG games are going to be directly novelized. The sort of story interesting in an RPG isn't necessarily the same sort of story with the same sort of pacing and conflicts that is interesting in a novel, but that doesn't mean that an RPG story is any less artful. The measure of an RPG story ought to be how much its participants enjoyed it.

I would suggest that classic simulationist and gamist style games incorporate their own mechanisms for ensuring characters have flaws. One of the more obvious and successful mechanics is simply to reward players for taking flaws by providing them with resources that they can use to optimize. If encouraging flaws is sufficient for the system to help in "creating interesting characters and interesting stories, instead of detracting from it.", then classic gamist and simulationist games are already on top of that.

In my experience, system doesn't really matter here. If the group has as its goal creating a story and creating interesting characters and exploring that 'character' and 'narrative' space, then that is what will happen. And if they don't (or can't, because of lack of player or narrator skills in those areas), then they won't - regardless of what the system intends.
 

I really and I mean REALLY disagree with the ‘system matters’ take on RPG design popularized by Ron Edwards and Forge. I believe that fundamentally, any game designed strictly from the system matters perspective will fail as a popular game. It’s an approach to gaming from a theoretical perspective that has nothing to do with the realities of table play, and as such will never create games as broadly appealing as more organic and more pragmatic games like D&D. It’s this reason that lies behind seemingly badly designed games (from a rules perspective) being more popular and enduring than all the elegantly designed systems out there. The people producing the elegant designs all too often don’t know what they are designing for.

One of the first flaws the ‘system matters’ designers make is assuming that a group is willing and able to accept whatever goals the designer had for the game as their own. What you end up with is game designed by designers for themselves, and which basically work only for their own tables (if that, since play testing doesn’t seem to be the hallmark of designs of this sort). In the real world, most groups aren’t composed entirely players who have the attitude or the ability to adopt the goals of whatever game they are thrust into, and even when they can a good percentage of those players don’t stay satisfied for long because they’d rather be playing in a game that had their preferred goals.

In practice, most groups will have at least one gamer who is a purist for style. Regardless of the game, this gamer is only interested in playing the game for a story, or to win, or to kill things and take their stuff, or toy with the rules, or to engage in complex ‘what if’ scenarios, or to explore philosophical issues, or whatever. Regardless of the game’s goals, the player tries to adapt the game to his own goals. Likewise, most groups will have at least one gamer who is purist for alignment. Regardless of the game or the nominal character he is playing, he always plays the character from a certain moral perspective – every character is lawful good, or chaotic neutral, or chaotic evil, or simply is unconcerned with morality and makes choices solely based on their perceived survival value. Likewise, most groups will have at least one player that enjoys competing AND story AND emersion and will feel cheated if the game isn’t offering all three either simultaneously or at least in turns. And finally, almost every group has at least one member that is learning disabled in one RPG skill set or another. Despite 5 or 16 years in the game, that player simply can’t RP… or can’t build optimized characters without help… or has no idea what to do in a tactical situation. Games that try to tell the group how the game should be played in GNS terms, almost always fail on this level.

The typical response is ‘you should get a different group’, but groups of friends are what they are. You go to game with the group you got, not the one the designer tells you should have, because friends are scarce and friends that will show up every week to commit 4+ hours to a game are even rarer. You don’t abandon your group because some designer tells you that you are doing it wrong. Instead of finding a different group, you find a different game – either within the system that the designer didn’t imagine – or in another system. And if your system is inflexible in that way, as many ‘system matters’ systems are, then usually it’s the later.

Another way the ‘system matters’ philosophers go wrong is that they fail to realize that the rules aren’t even remotely the most important things at the table. In addition to the personalities and abilities of the players being more important than the system, and the social contract prevailing at the table being more important than the system (the ‘meta-rules’) there is one area of a the game that I consider all important that ‘system matters’ designers almost invariably neglect. And that area is, what does the story teller bring to the table?

The single most important factor in determining what a game is like is not the rules, but how a story teller envisions play and prepares to play the game. Regardless of system, if the story teller prepares for play by drawing a complex asymmetrical map of an underground environment, populates that environment with monsters, treasure, and traps and proceeds to describe the game in terms of the players step by step investigation of this environment, the game is going to play a lot like D&D. This may result in some degree of system weirdness from time to time if the designer really REALLY didn’t anticipate this possibility, but by and large those system effects are going to be submerged down beneath the level of the story being created so that – if you really did novelize the game so that you removed all meta-descriptions from the story, you couldn’t tell what system was really being played. You can see that effect in the reverse. Tolkien’s LotR may not be best suited as a 1e AD&D game, but ultimately ‘Gandalf is a 6th level Wizard’ can be seen as a reasonable enough interpretation that it’s possible to see back to a campaign played by a particular group of players using a particular system (that never actually occurred).

The really crazy thing that I’m asserting is that regardless of the system, not only can you prepare the game to be like D&D by assuming that a dungeon is fundamental to play, but you can probably make that work within the system by preparing for that properly. You might not get the impression from the text that ‘Dogs in the Vineyard’ is a game of dungeon exploration where you kill things and take their stuff, but with the right game preparation and the right players it would probably work as one. In fact, the only reason I don’t right ‘certainly’ instead of probably is I haven’t bothered to try it yet. Often here the question becomes ‘why would you want to’, and the answer to that is depending on the situation either “Right. Exactly” or else “Because groups can adjust faster than systems can.” The story teller may start out with a theory of how the game is going to be played, but consciously or unconsciously adapt to how the game is actually played at that table.

And yes, you can get a session of ‘Dogs in the Vineyard’ style low drama, philosophical, moral and narrative tension out of D20 (or even 1e AD&D) if you prepare for it right and have the right players.

Because the system is of so relatively minor importance, problems with the system can be plowed through. What you can’t plow through is problems between the games the story teller makes and the games that the players want to play, or failures of the social contract, or so forth. A game that tells you what the game you are supposed to play is, or tells you what social contract you are supposed to have, or even tells you where the fun is supposed to be, is setting itself up for failure. And in general, I tend to be far more impressed by a game that provides copious examples of how to successfully prepare to play the game, and how to run the game once it begins, than one that has an elegant or innovative system.
 

The matter is - what I'm describing is not a theoretical analysis based on what some people wrote in their blogs. I would probably never care for various Forge theories if not for one thing.

It just works for me and my friends.

I played in games where the whole group had common expectations, but the game system didn't fit - the system actively got in the way, leaving a choice between ignoring it and compromising what we all wanted from the game.
And I played in games where system actively drove and focused play, in a way that wouldn't be possible without it.

I could probably run my Mouse Guard games using D&D. It would work, but would be less fun - run by the same GM, with the same group. I could try to run my Nobilis or DitV games with D&D and they would crash horribly. Or, in best case, they would be just played freeform, ignoring all the numbers on character sheets.

I usually don't choose players based on the game - I have many games and I can choose a game that fits what we want to play. It's not than no other game would fit the style we prefer for given evening. But we don't have to play something that fits only partially (because the game tries to be everything for everyone) - we may choose the game that fits perfectly.

Maybe the system does not matter for you. Maybe you're just much better GM than I ever played with, maybe you don't fully use the systems of games you play, maybe you have less varied range of play styles that you find fun. Maybe something else entirely.
But for me, and many people I play with, it matters enormously. Playing focused games that fit our preferences is much more fun and we would never want to return to playing a single, "generic" game, whatever it would be.



Now to the other matter you discussed in your post. You state that every game, at some level, mus focus on "winning" or it won't work. That is just not true. Maybe they don't work for you because you or your group focus on winning no matter what you play. Games don't need to model gaining power. They don't need accumulation of resources - or they may use it, but in completely different way.

In Nobilis, your long-term projects move forward when you try and fail, get in trouble or encounter something that significantly changes you and your goals. Activities that make the game interesting are rewarded, not the shortest path to success. In Mouse Guard, working hard to achieve your goal and failing is rewarded differently, but not less, than achieving it. In DitV players themselves choose between adding and removing their characters' resources - based on what better fits the fictional situation.

As for RPG sessions not being novelized - it's not surprising. RPG is a different medium, with different focus. A book is perceived passively. RPG session is something that all participants actively shape. Being able to make choices and have that choices matter is what makes play interesting - that's something no book can offer. And that is also why RPGs don't need to focus on winning. They may focus on what you choose to fight for.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top