Perception and Stealth

[Jim DelRosso]

So, I had this idea.

What if you were to combine the skills Spot and Listen into a Perception skill, and the skills Hide and Move Silently into a Stealth skill? (Note: I'd leave Search as-is -- IMO it covers a very different sort of thing.)

I've heard it mentioned that AEG's Mercenaries suggested averaging the appropriate skills to get the Perception and Steal values.

My question is this: if you simply removed Spot, Listen, Hide, and Move Silently from the game, and replaced them with Perception and Stealth, would this unbalance the game? What sorts of issues would it raise?

I ask because I think it's a pretty neat idea, and I'd like to see the problems with it in advance. (And maybe even have some other folks think it's a good idea. Who knows? )

 

[SylverFlame]

As for unbalancing the game... I don't think it really does. The problem arises in the diversification of skills.

Your stealth and perception skills assume the char is as good at hiding as moving quietly (for stealth). This is not really an accurate idea and I'd avoid the combo for that.

 

[Destil]

I think it would work fine, myself. A bit more abstract, granted... and makes things better for stealthy & preceptive types (halving the nessessery skill point inestments)... if that's what you want to do, go for it.

 

[Hollywood]

It does slightly unbalance the game. Its possible to gain the same number of ranks in Stealthy faster than it is if you have to take the Hide and Move Silently skills seperately. This plays into the hands of the Ranger, rather than of the Rogue.

But the big question is, why? Most house rules that are dicussed here are aimed at expanding the flexibility of D&D [or of course correcting its myriad of problems] either to work with different campaigns or due to personal reasons and wants. This house rule essentially goes against that trend, and 3rd Ed. in general into less flexibility.

 

[Jeph]

I think it does unbalance the game a bit, but not in a combat sense. Why? those four skills, along with Tumble, are, IMHO, the 5 most powerful skills. If you combined two sets of the most powerful skills into 2 even more powerful skills . . . there's just no reason not to max out in it.

That's usually a good decider on balance: would almost every character you make max out in those skills? For me, yes.

EDIT: Because I have no idea about what a Tuble is.

 

[Jim DelRosso]

My main reasoning was this:

Most folks max out these four skills anyways, if possible.
Thus, making theme asier to max out gives characters more skill points to play with. This is, IMO, a good thing: it leads to more diverse characters.

 

[Ran]

The rogue is quite improved, since they can stop spending 2 skill points, gaining 2 other skills and leaving the others with the same benefit, aside from the rogue, everyone else benefits...

 

[Hollywood]

Most folks max out these four skills anyways, if possible.
Thus, making theme asier to max out gives characters more skill points to play with. This is, IMO, a good thing: it leads to more diverse characters.

So give everyone +2 to their skill points. That way its fair across the board more or less.

 

[Jim DelRosso]

So give everyone +2 to their skill points. That way its fair across the board more or less.

I'm not sure that's any more fair; and it loses some of the utility that can be gained by combining Spot/Listen and Move Silently/Hide.

I see the extra skill points as a positive side-effect, not the goal. The goal is simplifying the use of skills that, IME, are often differentiated only by whim. Most (not all, but most) uses of Spot and Listen are interchangeable; same with Hide and Move Silently. Again, IME.

 

[Hollywood]

I see the extra skill points as a positive side-effect, not the goal. The goal is simplifying the use of skills that, IME, are often differentiated only by whim. Most (not all, but most) uses of Spot and Listen are interchangeable; same with Hide and Move Silently. Again, IME.

That depends. As a DM I make people roll spot and listen checks for different things, and its dependent on the character's race too. To me spot and listen are not interchangeable. They represent two different methods of identifying your surroundings. Not to mention, not all classes get both Spot and Listen. Rogue does, Ranger does, Barbarian and Bard only get Listen. So there is a difference there.

Hide and Move, to me are not interchangeable either. Sure, more often than not a character will have roughly the same ability in both. But characters like gnomes and halflings, due to small size get a bonus to Hide. Does that apply to Move Silently too? With yours it does, with the standard rules it doesn't.

Basically by combining the two, you not only allow for less flexibility than the limited flexibility D&D has built into it, but you also end up giving certain classes MORE skill points than they previously had which changes the balance of the classes... and the Rogue is one class that really doesn't need more skill points in comparison to the other.