Jim DelRosso
First Post
I still just don't see a "restricted flexibility"... but YMMV.
Perception and Stealth
- Thread starter Jim DelRosso
- Start date
Apok
First Post
I like the idea, myself; it helps out those classes who get screwed on skill points. Yeah, it might take away from some perceived aspects of "flexibility" but is this really a major concern?
If it makes the game easier & more enjoyable, do it. If it happens to reduce some of the game's granularity, then so be it.
If it makes the game easier & more enjoyable, do it. If it happens to reduce some of the game's granularity, then so be it.
The Shaman
First Post
Thread necromancy.
Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd reanimate this one instead.
I like the idea of a generalized Perception check - it seems to me that the only reason for a separate Listen skill is a holdover from the "Hear Noise" class feature of the Thief. I'm a little hesitant, however - certainly there's some credence to the idea that a character might have extraordinary vision and average hearing. There is also an argument to be made, on the other hand, that Spot already extends to senses beyond sight, which would lend weight to the idea of eliminating Listen and using a single combined skill such as Perception.
I'm not so sure about lumping Hide and Move Silently into Stealth, however - I agree with SylverFlame that these skills seem to be less linked somehow, though I'm having a hard time putting my finger on exactly why. Hopefully someone else will weigh in on this one.
I understand that some d20 books (in the time since this thread was first started, I be;ieve) have combined these skill - does anyone have experience with these variants on character creation and game-play?
Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd reanimate this one instead.
I like the idea of a generalized Perception check - it seems to me that the only reason for a separate Listen skill is a holdover from the "Hear Noise" class feature of the Thief. I'm a little hesitant, however - certainly there's some credence to the idea that a character might have extraordinary vision and average hearing. There is also an argument to be made, on the other hand, that Spot already extends to senses beyond sight, which would lend weight to the idea of eliminating Listen and using a single combined skill such as Perception.
I'm not so sure about lumping Hide and Move Silently into Stealth, however - I agree with SylverFlame that these skills seem to be less linked somehow, though I'm having a hard time putting my finger on exactly why. Hopefully someone else will weigh in on this one.
I understand that some d20 books (in the time since this thread was first started, I be;ieve) have combined these skill - does anyone have experience with these variants on character creation and game-play?
Eternalknight
First Post
Yep, both True20 and Lone Wolf use this system. I have not found it to a problem.
Klaus
First Post
I strongly dislike rolling Listen, Spot and Search into a single skill, just as I dislike rolling Hide and Move Silently into a single skill.
If there's just a single Perception skill, you'd have to add parentyhetical modifiers based on a single sense (like Perception +5 [Listen +7]). That isn't simpler than having separate Listen, Spot and Search skills.
The only reason I can think of for doing this would be to save up on skill points.
If there's just a single Perception skill, you'd have to add parentyhetical modifiers based on a single sense (like Perception +5 [Listen +7]). That isn't simpler than having separate Listen, Spot and Search skills.
The only reason I can think of for doing this would be to save up on skill points.
Kapalen
First Post
If someone has spot and listen or hide and move silently, remove them from their skill list and add perception or stealth respectively. It adds a little more balance, so that people who usually only have one don't get both. Other than that, I'm gonna pressure my DM to do this. I don't mean I'm gonna beat hjim up and make him do it, but I'll tell him I like the idea.
Kisanji Arael
First Post
Here's my experience:
I'm a high school student, and my dad lives on the campus of my boarding school. This lumps me under "residential faculty", "day-boarder", or "lucky", depending on whom you ask. However, one of the main benefits of this is that I'm effectively an unpaid night-watchman. Daytime restrictions don't really apply to me. I've learned the nuances of working with each of the school's night-watch people, depending on whether I'm up for their dry humor.
Wandering around campus with the night people has always been interesting. I had to learn the differences in each. One of them got slammed in the ear and can't hear. The other two have ears like a bat, but one of them has troubles in one eye. On a logistical basis, listen and spot are very much separate skills. On the same note, however, I don't think they're skills at all.... but neither here nor now.
I could very much see this being useful for one class-- Give it to rangers. Effectively, it becomes a mega-class skill. Even if the ranger is deaf, he's gotten so good that he can sense the vibrations. Blind? He has an enhanced sense of smell, or something similar, and he doesn't need sight. You, as a badass ranger (who just gave half his salary orphans... orphans with diseases), have trained yourself to overcome your limitations and only have to spend half the points. However, for the going-blind elven mage.... they are very much separate skills, and it will throw him off.
I'm a high school student, and my dad lives on the campus of my boarding school. This lumps me under "residential faculty", "day-boarder", or "lucky", depending on whom you ask. However, one of the main benefits of this is that I'm effectively an unpaid night-watchman. Daytime restrictions don't really apply to me. I've learned the nuances of working with each of the school's night-watch people, depending on whether I'm up for their dry humor.
Wandering around campus with the night people has always been interesting. I had to learn the differences in each. One of them got slammed in the ear and can't hear. The other two have ears like a bat, but one of them has troubles in one eye. On a logistical basis, listen and spot are very much separate skills. On the same note, however, I don't think they're skills at all.... but neither here nor now.
I could very much see this being useful for one class-- Give it to rangers. Effectively, it becomes a mega-class skill. Even if the ranger is deaf, he's gotten so good that he can sense the vibrations. Blind? He has an enhanced sense of smell, or something similar, and he doesn't need sight. You, as a badass ranger (who just gave half his salary orphans... orphans with diseases), have trained yourself to overcome your limitations and only have to spend half the points. However, for the going-blind elven mage.... they are very much separate skills, and it will throw him off.
Last edited:
JiffyPopTart
Bree-Yark
I think the entire point to combining the two skills is to simplify the game.
It is super simple to run a game with both a SNEAK skill (as the average of the two) and both hide and move silent as separate skills to boot.
Example:
DM: You see a guard standing 300 feet away. He looks bored.
Player: I sneak up to that big rock 50 feet away from him.
DM: OK, roll your sneak vs the guards perception
Player: I got a 17
DM: [roll] (Guard gets a 19). You get to the rock but as you glance at the guard he is scrutinizing your general direction. He noticed something.
Player: Poop! I drink an invisibility potion....I was hoping to save it for later.
DM: The guard is coming over to look for you.
Player: I hang tight till he goes away
DM: Make a Move Silent roll....you get a +10 bonus for staying still.
Player: Ha! 34!
DM: [rolls for guards Listen roll] He looks around but doesn't see anything and after a few minutes resumes his post.
There isn't any reason not to use both individual skills and average them for MOST sneaky situations.
To reply to the original post....the only real imbalance will be in that rogues (and other sneaky types) will get an ever so slight power boost in free skill points....and you will have to rewrite some spell effects (what bonus doesn Invisibility or Silence give to your Sneak rolls?).
DS
It is super simple to run a game with both a SNEAK skill (as the average of the two) and both hide and move silent as separate skills to boot.
Example:
DM: You see a guard standing 300 feet away. He looks bored.
Player: I sneak up to that big rock 50 feet away from him.
DM: OK, roll your sneak vs the guards perception
Player: I got a 17
DM: [roll] (Guard gets a 19). You get to the rock but as you glance at the guard he is scrutinizing your general direction. He noticed something.
Player: Poop! I drink an invisibility potion....I was hoping to save it for later.
DM: The guard is coming over to look for you.
Player: I hang tight till he goes away
DM: Make a Move Silent roll....you get a +10 bonus for staying still.
Player: Ha! 34!
DM: [rolls for guards Listen roll] He looks around but doesn't see anything and after a few minutes resumes his post.
There isn't any reason not to use both individual skills and average them for MOST sneaky situations.
To reply to the original post....the only real imbalance will be in that rogues (and other sneaky types) will get an ever so slight power boost in free skill points....and you will have to rewrite some spell effects (what bonus doesn Invisibility or Silence give to your Sneak rolls?).
DS
Eldragon
First Post
The main problem I see with having Hide/Move Silently on separate skills is that it is far too common to have someone roll a very low for one skill, and very high for the other. So a rogue trying to do stealth is hampered by the fact that they need two decent rolls to be sufficiently stealthy, but someone trying to observe the rogue only needs one good roll. Specifically, a guard needs to only hear or see something suspicious to be alerted.
I have used the Stealth/Perception system once and I like it, but here is the problem we ran into:
There are many situations were one ability check is much higher than the other for good reasons. i.e. An invisible character. Additionally, many monsters have a large bonus to one skill, but not the other in the pair.
In order to account for these discrepencies, we found we would need to roll both skill checks separately for many occasions anyway.
I have used the Stealth/Perception system once and I like it, but here is the problem we ran into:
There are many situations were one ability check is much higher than the other for good reasons. i.e. An invisible character. Additionally, many monsters have a large bonus to one skill, but not the other in the pair.
In order to account for these discrepencies, we found we would need to roll both skill checks separately for many occasions anyway.
