D&D 5E Perception, Passive Perception, and Investigation

clearstream

(He, Him)
Personally, I use a couple of houserules to avoid some of these issues.

First, I let Observant give advantage on active Perception and Investigation checks, in addition to passive checks. I do this because I don't want the utility of the feat to depend heavily on whether I call for an active check or use a passive check. (As a general principle, I don't want the outcome of an in-game action to be dependent on the choice between two different resolution methods.)
Isn't the outcome the same, if passive is the floor? It seems like your choice on that is cornering you into modifying the feat.

Second, in addition to deduction, I let Investigation also apply to situations covered by the old Gather Information skill, and I also let it work as a general-purpose Research skill (broader than just finding hidden fragments of knowledge). I find this gives the Investigation skill enough alternative uses that I don't have to go out of my way to design traps and other game elements in a way that makes Investigation useful--instead I can just design traps with the builder's IC goals/resources in mind.
Are you saying here - we don't want some traps that need Investigation, and some that do not? If so, that was the kind of consideration that just lead me to say it is consistently Investigation for artifacts.

A bad way to rule in my view is where Perception lets a character notice say some fine seams in the wall, but they would still need their Investigation to know they signified a secret door and how to open it. Either compounding the difficulty, or halving it, depending on if both must succeed, or success with either does the work. After many sessions I landed on just saying - it's Investigation for an architectural feature like a secret door because even if you did notice the seams, it was still going to use that skill at some point. I suppose one imagines the character noticing there is an inexplicable void between rooms, and putting that together with other suspicious features... or whatever.

My starting point was more as some other posters rule... but it just created inconsistencies for me in play. It's interesting how often I come back to consistency as a measure of a good ruling.
 

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Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
Isn't the outcome the same, if passive is the floor? It seems like your choice on that is cornering you into modifying the feat.
Not quite. Setting the passive (with the +5 from Observant) as a floor for an active check has a very different statistical distribution than simply granting advantage on the active check. If I set the passive as a floor, then players would always prefer active checks to passive, and my goal is to make the choice of active/passive not substantially affect the outcome.

For reference, I always roll versus passives on my end--I never compare a passive score to a fixed DC--so the distributions of (e.g.) a trap rolling against a passive+5 or a player rolling with advantage versus a static DC are kinda/sorta equivalent. (Technically the passive+5 is still advantageous, but for typical combinations of bonus vs DC, the odds are pretty close.) The one place that doesn't work is an active Search action vs the original Dex (Stealth) check, but in that particular case the rules effectively impose the passive as a floor anyway, since the original Dex (Stealth) check to become hidden would have failed if it didn't beat the character's passive.

Are you saying here - we don't want some traps that need Investigation, and some that do not? If so, that was the kind of consideration that just lead me to say it is consistently Investigation for artifacts.
I'm fine with some traps requiring investigation, and others not. I simply don't want to feel like I need to force any of the former into the game just to make Investigation worthwhile. And since Gather Information and Research come up pretty frequently in my games (they're common player-driven methods to get a leg up on the opposition), I needed a proficiency for them anyway, and Investigation is a great thematic fit.

A bad way to rule in my view is where Perception lets a character notice say some fine seams in the wall, but they would still need their Investigation to know they signified a secret door and how to open it. Either compounding the difficulty, or halving it, depending on if both must succeed, or success with either does the work. After many sessions I landed on just saying - it's Investigation for an architectural feature like a secret door because even if you did notice the seams, it was still going to use that skill at some point. I suppose one imagines the character noticing there is an inexplicable void between rooms, and putting that together with other suspicious features... or whatever.
I agree sequential perception and investigation checks are usually a bad idea. The (rare) sorts of traps where investigation would come into play at my table are set-pieces to be interacted with, rather than mere obstacles. (After all, if someone went to the trouble of designing and building a trap with a mechanism complicated enough to be difficult to understand, presumably it does something important.)

My starting point was more as some other posters rule... but it just created inconsistencies for me in play. It's interesting how often I come back to consistency as a measure of a good ruling.
I too am all in favor of consistency, which is why I put so much emphasis trying to make sure that both active and passive checks have similar chances of success. That way I can just pick the resolution method that seems best at the time.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Not quite. Setting the passive (with the +5 from Observant) as a floor for an active check has a very different statistical distribution than simply granting advantage on the active check. If I set the passive as a floor, then players would always prefer active checks to passive, and my goal is to make the choice of active/passive not substantially affect the outcome.
Is it right then that in your campaign there is no cost for using the skill actively? It doesn't take any extra time to do so?
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
Is it right then that in your campaign there is no cost for using the skill actively? It doesn't take any extra time to do so?
Why would the resolution method affect the time a skill takes? With one explicit exception in the rules, discussed below, what the character is doing IC doesn't depend on the OOC resolution method. So, for example, searching 50 meters of hallway for traps takes the same time for the character regardless of whether I call for a single passive check representing the repeated task, or multiple active checks.

The only place that changes is the specific situation where the passive score is being used as the DC for an enemy check (e.g. Dex (Stealth) to hide) which takes no action on the part of the character. Taking the Search Action takes an Action, but gives a second chance (in the form of an active check) to find someone hidden that already beat the character's passive score. So the only place where the action cost is different is where the rules (effectively) build-in the passive-as-a-minimum rule.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
Why would the resolution method affect the time a skill takes? With one explicit exception in the rules, discussed below, what the character is doing IC doesn't depend on the OOC resolution method. So, for example, searching 50 meters of hallway for traps takes the same time for the character regardless of whether I call for a single passive check representing the repeated task, or multiple active checks.
I guessed that might be a difference between how we play it. So in my game, the passive value is for the ongoing awareness of a normally cautious party. If they want an active check, they need to put extra effort into it. I still don't quite follow your method. Can you correct or confirm the following please?

Clement - I stop searching for secret doors with the others, and keep a look out for interlopers
Clearstream - roll in the tower and tell me your Wisdom (Perception) modifier

versus

Clement - I stop searching for secret doors with the others, and keep a look out for other interlopers
Xetheral - okay, I will note your passive Wisdom (Perception), you'll spot any whose Stealth that number beats
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
I guessed that might be a difference between how we play it. So in my game, the passive value is for the ongoing awareness of a normally cautious party. If they want an active check, they need to put extra effort into it. I still don't quite follow your method. Can you correct or confirm the following please?

Clement - I stop searching for secret doors with the others, and keep a look out for interlopers
Clearstream - roll in the tower and tell me your Wisdom (Perception) modifier

versus

Clement - I stop searching for secret doors with the others, and keep a look out for other interlopers
Xetheral - okay, I will note your passive Wisdom (Perception), you'll spot any whose Stealth that number beats
My verbal response to Clement would probably be "Sounds good!", but you've got the mechanics right. Note that Clement would still get his passive perception to notice threats even if he just said "I stop searching for secret doors" so long as he didn't declare anything else that would be distracting--I treat "watching for interlopers" as the default action declaration. Also note that, while searching for traps, a character does not get their passive perception at all at my table--out-of-combat, enemy stealth checks automatically succeed against a distracted character.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
My verbal response to Clement would probably be "Sounds good!", but you've got the mechanics right. Note that Clement would still get his passive perception to notice threats even if he just said "I stop searching for secret doors" so long as he didn't declare anything else that would be distracting--I treat "watching for interlopers" as the default action declaration. Also note that, while searching for traps, a character does not get their passive perception at all at my table--out-of-combat, enemy stealth checks automatically succeed against a distracted character.
So is it right that characters never get active perception against creatures? Only against things like traps?
 

Pauln6

Hero
The way I have always done it is to apply a higher DC to perception checks that would be easier to find with investigation. So sure, you might notice that a section of wall is a slightly different colour or there is a barely noticeable line where the door is but you would have a much higher chance of making deductions from closer investigation, running your fingers over the wall etc.

+5 is a good baseline but it can vary.
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
So is it right that characters never get active perception against creatures? Only against things like traps?
They'd get an active Wis (Perception) check if they declare an action that wasn't ongoing (since ongoing tasks are what passive checks are for) and the normal prerequisites for making a check are met.

So if the PC declares that they are doing a walkthrough and visual inspection of a grove to find out what is there, and I as a DM know that there is a hidden creature there, I would have to decide whether I think it's impossible/possible/certain for the character to find the creature, and if it's possible I'd call for a WIS (Perception) check. (In this example I think the consequence for failure is a given.) As the character would have already noticed the creature had the creature's hide check failed (assuming the grove is small/quiet enough that everything is in hearing range), this active check effectively has a minimum floor of the character's passive perception. The in-combat analogue would be taking the Search action.

Other situations where an active WIS (Perception) check to notice creatures might apply include: going up to the top of a tower to scan the horizon for movement (as opposed to standing watch, which would be passive), or looking for someone specific, such as spotting a friend in a heavy crowd (as opposed to watching the crowd until the friend is seen, which would be passive).
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
They'd get an active Wis (Perception) check if they declare an action that wasn't ongoing (since ongoing tasks are what passive checks are for) and the normal prerequisites for making a check are met.
So if I search repeatedly, I can't do better than my passive. But if I search once, I might beat it?
 

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