D&D 5E Perception vs Investigate

[Olive]

I'm not normally a dungeons filled with traps kind of DM but the PCs are currently investigating the tomb of the last king and so I've thrown a few in. In doing so, I've noticed a bit of a conflict in the rules. The rogue in the party has little intelligence and no proficiency in Investigation but a high perception. This is in part because the PHB talks about searching for traps as specifically a Perception check but I noticed while preparing he dungeon that a number of mechanical traps (poison needle, poison dart) require an Investigation check.

Now, I'm going to hand wave this and allow either type of check in my game but I was wondering if this was a problem other people had noticed, or am I misreading it somehow?

 

[Harzel]

The Perception/Investigation dichotomy seems to be a common problem that different DMs handle differently. For my own part, I try to keep them separate with Perception being required to notice the existence of something and Investigation being required to discover what it is and how it works. Of course, this assumes that what it is and/or how it works are not dead obvious once you have noticed that it is there. And this in turn requires a level of description of detail that some DMs (I infer, because I cannot read their minds) do not want to bother with --- which is a perfectly fine thing if treating traps more abstractly is more fun for you and your players.

 

[John R Davis]

Sometimes you spot the hazard by instinct, sometimes by some thoughtful study.
Keeps things fresh

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Awareness to notice something, Investigate to figure out what it is. Sometimes it's obvious where something is, so you can skip right to Investigate. Sometimes it's obvious what it is, so all you need to do is notice it.

 

[vpuigdoller]

Hmm I see it this way. Lets suppose there was a murder and the adventurers dont know about it. They go in to the murder room which was badly cleaned in a hurry. I would ask for a perception roll to see if any of them notice there is still blood droplets on the floor. I would ask for an investigation roll if they wish to know the source of the blood droplets or how it got there.

 

[Horwath]

As for noticing stuff, I'm all for Perception, with all all traps etc.

Investigation looks like a lost skill. Yeah, you could use it to tell players how something works or what happened, but it feels like lazy to me.

I would rather have players think about how to work around a trap that they found or clues to the crime not "I rolled 22, tell me everything."

 

[Mouseferatu]

All of the above are good. I tend to abstract it down to:

If it's something you notice--spot the rider in the distance, hear the snores of the orcs behind the door--it's Perception.

If it's something you search for--a secret door, one particular letter amidst a heap of documents--it's Investigation.

As far as the trap concept specifically? I'd say it depends on the trap. Something you might happen to note while walking by, such as arrow slits in the walls or the fact that the tunnel is slightly curved as though boulder-shaped, is Perception. Something you have to actively hunt for/examine, like a poison needle in the lock, is Investigation. A few, such as spotting a tripwire, could be either.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I would rather have players think about how to work around a trap that they found or clues to the crime not "I rolled 22, tell me everything."

Agreed, but that still leaves room for Investigation as a skill. The players may actively figure out for themselves, based on hints you've dropped, that Mayor Ganz is a likely suspect for the demonic cult leader, but they still have to roll Investigate when searching his manor to find the hidden compartment with the idol.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I use investigation to get clues where to search.
A missing room in the house may tell you whee to look for a hidden door. A floor that is completely covered with sust in a otherwised clean dungeon: look for a trap.
Creatures with camouflage are indistinguishable from normal X. Investigation may tell you that they look out of place.

 

[Horwath]

Agreed, but that still leaves room for Investigation as a skill. The players may actively figure out for themselves, based on hints you've dropped, that Mayor Ganz is a likely suspect for the demonic cult leader, but they still have to roll Investigate when searching his manor to find the hidden compartment with the idol.

Very little. And as most of PCs get only 5-6 skills to learn, it's almost a waste of a skill slot.(same could be said about sleight of hands and animal handling, but that is another topic).

Any searching part can be molded to perception and any part about clues or tracks can be added to survival, investigating poisoning is medicine.