Perhaps an old question, but Orcs?

[ancientvaults]

When it comes to miniscule CR differences like 1/3 vs. 1/2, the ssue isn't if the encounter will kill the party or be a cakewalk. The issue is that, in this case, the enemy with (effectively) more hp and that dishes out more damage gives less XP than the other monster. At least that'd be the issue to me. It doesn't really matter much that the hobgoblin fighter has a bunch of extra nice things. If you're using them for a straight up combat encounter with the party (which I think is a fair assumption for these monsters; hobgoblins might have a use for a ambush I guess, but you can modify the xp for those kinds of fights for "situational advantages" anyway), the damage and staying power is by far the biggest measure of threat, IMO.

I agree heartily. If I am going to throw, say goblins at a party now I will make specialized goblins in groups, adjusting x.p. along with other additions, and then mixing them together.

For example, three goblins attacking an individual may include an archer, a heavy weapons guy and a quick stabby guy. Add in more for more players and run with it.

 

[pawsplay]

Why doesn't the hobgoblin have max hit points for first level? That would settle the controversy in mind, but even so...

I don't see the case that the orc should be worth more xp. The hobgoblins have a good chance of surprise, better Will saves, much better AC, and a better ranged attack. They have a slightly weaker attack, and may take only about 2/3 as much damage to really put down.

The fact that orcs do slightly better as melee attackers, and may get one partial action after being hit, is little compensation for their vulnerability to spells, bright light, and fairly weak melee attacks. For example, almost any rogue could flank an orc and reliably hit, triggering a sneak attack. Hitting AC 16, even with a flanking bonus, may be hard to pull off at 1st level for a non-fighter.

 

[pawsplay]

Bestiary p.6, "Creatures with PC class levels receive maximum hit points for their first HD..."

So the hobgoblin should have at least 16 hit points.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

Bestiary p.6, "Creatures with PC class levels receive maximum hit points for their first HD..."

So the hobgoblin should have at least 16 hit points.

Well yeah at least if they pick Toughness.

I wonder though why the Hobgoblin race are listed as Fighters, is it because of their martial training and discipline? I mean even Elves, Dwarves and Humans are listed as warriors as standard, while Fighters are the exception.

Also, since Heroic-class NPCs are meant to represent the elite, and thus have Elite Array abilities, Hobgoblins seem to all have that as well.. so what hobgoblins have actual "average" Hobgoblin stats? And since so many of them are combatants, wouldn't that just increase their racial average anyhow? This doesen't make sense to me.

Potential fix: There are still many Hobgoblin Warriors, but Fighters are more common than normal and are often the ones outside their homes and nations, thus they are listed as such.

 

[pawsplay]

Well yeah at least if they pick Toughness.

I wonder though why the Hobgoblin race are listed as Fighters, is it because of their martial training and discipline? I mean even Elves, Dwarves and Humans are listed as warriors as standard, while Fighters are the exception.

Also, since Heroic-class NPCs are meant to represent the elite, and thus have Elite Array abilities, Hobgoblins seem to all have that as well.. so what hobgoblins have actual "average" Hobgoblin stats? And since so many of them are combatants, wouldn't that just increase their racial average anyhow? This doesen't make sense to me.

Potential fix: There are still many Hobgoblin Warriors, but Fighters are more common than normal and are often the ones outside their homes and nations, thus they are listed as such.

That seems to be the case. The Aasimar is a 1st level cleric, I don't think they're implying a race of clerics. It's actually probably a more useful approach than statting a 1st level warrior of everything.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

That seems to be the case. The Aasimar is a 1st level cleric, I don't think they're implying a race of clerics. It's actually probably a more useful approach than statting a 1st level warrior of everything.

Hmm race of clerics, hehe in some ways they are...

But in 3.5 Assimar were listed as 1st level warriors just like any other humanoid/person without racial HD.

I'm guessing the new take is "whatever the PCs are most likely to encounter." Rather than "the majority of it's race." If it was the latter then everyone would be listed as commoners anyway, with the exception of the more martial races like orcs, hobgoblins etc. But I'm guessing that their "noncombatants" are generally commoners as well.

But in any case, Aasimar are different, since they are often "imbedded" into human society rather than forming societies of their own, and thus their natural inclinks make them more likely to become clerics or paladins rather than warriors and commoners... unless shunned, they should have greater chance of being detected and trained to be special.

 

[freyar]

3.5 essentially had a rule that any humanoid with no racial HD should be listed as a warrior. Pathfinder is more varied; I think they tried to present what a DM would most likely want to use.

 

[Jhaelen]

3.5 essentially had a rule that any humanoid with no racial HD should be listed as a warrior. Pathfinder is more varied; I think they tried to present what a DM would most likely want to use.

There have been exceptions in 3e, though, e.g. the Blue as presented in the XPH is a psion.

 

[Aremis]

Well yeah at least if they pick Toughness.

I wonder though why the Hobgoblin race are listed as Fighters, is it because of their martial training and discipline? I mean even Elves, Dwarves and Humans are listed as warriors as standard, while Fighters are the exception.

Also, since Heroic-class NPCs are meant to represent the elite, and thus have Elite Array abilities, Hobgoblins seem to all have that as well.. so what hobgoblins have actual "average" Hobgoblin stats? And since so many of them are combatants, wouldn't that just increase their racial average anyhow? This doesen't make sense to me.

Potential fix: There are still many Hobgoblin Warriors, but Fighters are more common than normal and are often the ones outside their homes and nations, thus they are listed as such.

You know I think Paizo may consider Hobgoblins the same way I do, I think of them as very organized and very well trained troops so with that Fighter would be a perfect fit. While the Orc is a tough skirmisher so warrior. Just how I use them in my game take it for what its worth.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

You know I think Paizo may consider Hobgoblins the same way I do, I think of them as very organized and very well trained troops so with that Fighter would be a perfect fit. While the Orc is a tough skirmisher so warrior. Just how I use them in my game take it for what its worth.

Yes but that means hobgoblin will almost always be able to defeat an orc because of higher stats, more HPs and an extra feat to boot.

A warrior is not a "skirmisher", a warrior is a warrior and a fighter is just a name for a heroic version.

But anyway, yeah it works if you don't think too much about it. Hobgoblins are even more civilized and organized in my game world so no problems there.