Persistant Idea in a Magic Item

Elocin said:
The +4 to your abilities is to ALL of your abilities.

Not exactly. Its +4 to your ability checks. There's a difference. Your stats don't actually go up, so you don't deal extra damage, get an even better AC (from Dex), better carrying capacity, etc.
 

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kreynolds said:


It's from the Book of Eldritch Might. It gives a +4 luck bonus to AC, attack rolls, saves and ability checks. 8th level spell, lasts 10 minutes per level. I'd help price it, but I have yet to figure out the logic behind the luck bonus. Hell, I can't even price the Stone of Good Luck! :)

8th level spell?

Plus Persistent Spell?

12th level slot -- the ability is Epic, with the typical x10 cost multiplier for most epic magic items.

Now -- I prefer the chart in Tome and Blood; it's more complete, and ... less forgiving ... than the DMG version.

Using Tome and Blood and the ELH together, therefor, Ifigure the MINIMUM caster level would have to be ... well, let's see ... it'd take three of the Epic feats that give an extra spell-level slot (one for 10th, one for 11th, one for 12th).

I figure that'd take ... what, 5 levels at Epic? On top of being able to cast 9th level spells? So, let's call it a 25th level caster.

(25 x 12) x (1800 x 10 / 5) =

300 x 3600 =

1,080,000

That's the starting point. Now, putting that into a +5 Mithril Shirt ... I'm sorry, I'd have to call that "additional powers, not similar" and double it.

So, 2,160,000gp to add a once-per-day, command-word activated "Persistent Mantle of Egregious Might" spell to a suit of armor (or shield, helm/hat, etc). On top of whatever said item itself costs.

Even without the magnitude increase in cost for the Epic spell slot ... 216,000gp.

And it's seperately dispellable from the item itself, regardless.

To put the spell as-is, without Persistent Spell? 8th level spell, minimum 13th level caster.

Basic price of a use-activated spell effect would be:

8 x 13 x 2,000 =

112 x 2,000 =

224,000

Double that, per the line "Additional power, not similar", to put it in armor: 448,000gp.

This is where DM discretion comes in; I would say the power could be used only once each day, for an entire combat. The Epic version would work for 24 hours after the command word was spoken, and be seperately dispellable. The nonepic version would be good for only one combat but wouldn't be seperately dispellable.

All this said -- I don't think, as a GM, I'd permit that spell in my campaign ANYway. On the face of it it sounds too powerful compared to other 8th level spells.
 
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Elocin said:
Just as a reminder for this spell. The +4 to your abilities is to ALL of your abilities. Hmmm, so I think this thing costs way beyond anything an 18th level character could possibly afford. Thats kind of what I thought but when I was working it out I came up with a Persistant Mantle cats as a 9th level spell at 18th level catser

If the spell is 8th level to start, and you add +4 levels for the Persistent Spell metamagic, you get a 12th level spell. You don't stop adding levels form metamagicks, just because nonepic casters run out of spell levels to go up to. That' what being an EPIC spellcaster is for, heh.

Hence your flawed math (no offense).
 

To begin with, I feel that an item of such power would be an epic item or at very least a minor artifact. I would have serious thougts about allowing this in my game, especially since luck bonuses are so rare that they stack with just about everything.

If you have to put a price on it, actually, the item is somewhat similar in concept to a Stone of Good Luck, with a bonus of +4 instead of +1.

Using a very sloppy calculation, if a Stone of Good Luck (according to the SRD) costs 10,000 gp, then a Stone of Good Luck +4 should cost 4^2 or 16 times that, for a total of 160,000 gp. However this omits the +4 AC and +4 to attack rolls that the spell provides. Let's say, for argument's sake that adding these two abilities would double the base cost to 20,000 for an "Improved" Stone of Good Luck +1.

So the "Improved" Stone of Good Luck would be worth roughly:

20000 * 4^2 = 320,000 gp

as a permanent item. But one Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel can bring down the effect for the rest of the day, whereas the cost above reflects an item that is hard to stop except for suppressing it for a few rounds.

For this consideration, maybe a discount can be given.

I think you are still looking at 250,000+ gp for such an item if you don't believe it is an artifact.
 

Is there an errata out there for this spell then? I am looking at page 23 of the BoEM and it says all ability scores. "The character with this mantle gains a +4 luck bonus to AC, attack rolls, saving throws, and all ability scores." I am still going to assume that this spell is worded correctly since in an adventure something gets this cats on it and it states again that is raises all of its ability scores by 4.

I agree with Pax, now that I think about it, that yes it would be considered Epic in its origin so yea I don't think I will use it. I will not get into any discussions about whether to use it or not. also I take no offense what so ever with my math since A) I hate math B) Math hates me C) I have yet to figure out how much it costs to make any stupid d*mn magic item. For some reason I just can't wrap my brain around it.

Anyway, agian I thakn you for all your help.
 

Elocin, one easy rule is: look for the LEAST FAVORABLE price rate in the table.

Find every UNFAVORABLE modifier you can think of that might apply. Also look for the few FAVORABLE modifiers you think you can justify with an air-tight basis.

Figure the price on that; in the very least, it will not look like you're just powergaming for it's own sake. After all, the above is how a GM is likely to price things ... heh.
 

Elocin said:
Is there an errata out there for this spell then? I am looking at page 23 of the BoEM and it says all ability scores.

Do you have the print version? I have the electronic. There may very well be errata for my version.

EDIT: There is errata. I just grabbed it. My apologies Elocin.
 
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Pax, why do you assume that I am powergaming? I was just curious about how much a particular item would cost and I am labeled a powergamer? True, the spell I am referring to is extremely powerful even its core substance is very powerful. I figured that the item in its persistant form would be a ungodly amount of money. That is why I was questioning the 58K gold piece value I came up with. If I was powergaming I would have stuck with that price. Mainly since I came up with that price using the DM's own website on calculating magic items. Also I take it you have a problem with the Psionic Book with the Skin of the hero which gives you a +3 luck bonus to all your attacks, saves and skill checks. I know there are a lot of people who hate the Persistant metamagic feat but I was not asking for opinions on the feat or opinions on whether I should be able to use the item or not, I was just asking for the break down in price in the item. I greatly thank you for the help in figuring out that, yes this is a very powerful item and I was correct in thinking that the price would be outrageous. I know you are allowed to have your opinion but I wouldask that you not judge me by assumptions that you are making about me. I don't make assumptions against anyone else on here and I only ask that the same in return.

Again thank you all for the help and I appreciate it.
 

Elocin said:
Pax, why do you assume that I am powergaming? I was just curious about how much a particular item would cost and I am labeled a powergamer?

[...]

I know you are allowed to have your opinion but I wouldask that you not judge me by assumptions that you are making about me. I don't make assumptions against anyone else on here and I only ask that the same in return.

Again thank you all for the help and I appreciate it.

Don't get your panties in a bunch, Elocin. I never called you a poergamer; I haven't a clue as to the pwoer elvel of the campaign your character is in. Therefor, I never judged you at all.

I did judge the spell; for it's level, unless it costs lots of XP or GP to cast, it sounds overpowered. But as before, I will point out the caveat: I haven't seen the book it's in, so I haven't read the spell itself.

My comments towards "not being accused of powergaming" were to any reader in general ... not specifically to you. It's TRUE, if the DM sees you bending over backwards to not try and abuse a rule, well ... IME, he's less likely to step on your idea simply as a matter of course.
 

Elocin said:
...I was correct in thinking that the price would be outrageous.

Elocin, seriously, and no offense intended, I swear, but the only reason that the price seemed outrageous is because you were figuring it up incorrectly. An item that grants a continuous bonus is not calculated as if it were a continously functioning spell. It's calculated strictly as a bonus derived from the pricing guidelines in the DMG. If you just calculate it as a continuous spell, you get wonky results pretty much across the board.

For example, take a maximized bull's strength spell on a belt. Such an item would provide a flat +5 bonus to Strength (this is just an example, even though these types of items generally provide bonuses of +2, +4, and +6). If you calculate the price based upon a maximized bull's strength spell, you get 90,000 gp (5 x 9 x 2,000). If you calculate it based upon the bonus itself, using the guidelines presented in the DMG for ability enhancements, you get 25,000 gp (5 x 5 x 1,000). That's a huge difference, and the later method is the correct one, not the former.

See what I mean?
 

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