Petition to fix Saruman problem in ROTK

[jdavis]

One thing I'd like to point out on the Faramir stuff, in the movie he never tried to take the ring, he never asked to see it or to hold it or to mess with it at all, he was sending the Hbbits to his father because that was the law and he was trying to show his father he was worthy, that's a totally different than the interpretation of him being villianized, he was a roadblock and a hurdle for them but he never was a villian in any way, he was trying to save his people and become worthy in his fathers eyes (which does fit in with the character in the book), he didn't want the ring, he never tried to separate Frodo from the ring at all. His character didn't change all that much from the books, they just added more scenes with him and had him slower to catch on, that's all. Lets face it if he let the Hobbits go after the waterfall then they were done from the movie, that's it there is nothing more for them for the next hour and a half, the reasons for leaving Shelob out of Two Towers should actually strike true for the book purist crowd, In the book Shelob's Lair happens at the same time as the battle in Gondor, they couldn't have Sam and Frodo looking back from the mountains and seeing a big battle that hadden't taken place yet, the timing was all wrong. So what do you do cut Sam and Frodo out of the last half of the movie? Change the storyline to have them get to Shelob earlier and get slowed down somewhere later? Have the Shelob scenes intercut with the Isengard scenes and the Battle of Helm's deep (how hard would all that of been for people to follow)? I hated the portrayal of Faramir in the Theatrical cut not because he didn't match the book 100% but because he never got fleshed out much at all, he was just a obstical, in the extended version they fixed that, he got real screen time and some real insights. I love Faramir and I'm glad he was in the movie more than the 5 minutes he would of been in it if they had stuck to the book. He didn't change all that much, he never tried to claim the ring or take it from the Hobbits, he never made any push to use it himself or to even look at it, he just wanted to send it to his father and took longer to decide to send them on their way, he was never a villian in any way shape or form, he wasn't all that different in the end than he was in the book, they just dove into what drove him as a character a little more in depth than in the book.

Hey I wish they could of done everything 100% by the book, but that wasn't all that bad a portrayal of him, he was noble and honorable and showed wisdom and strength of character, plus he actually got a little bit of screen time. Man there are so many other fish to fry with changes they made, that one wasn't that bad.

 

[Berandor]

(snip)

You know, BSF (if I may call you that ), you are the kind of purist I really respect and relish.
I can see not agreeing with the changes, but understanding the reasons for them (heck, some of the changes don't appeal to me, as well, and I'm not sure whether PJ & Co. were right about them).
It really shows an open mind, to me, that you are able to distance yourself fro your love of the book enough to at least make an effort at understanding the changes. That you come to a different conclusion is fine, because that makes it possible to discuss it on a basis that doesn't evolve into a flame war.

JRRN, I was surprised to find you in a similar camp. Judging from your first comments, you seemed to be the kind of "PJ-basher" that is so often found these days. Perhaps I came over as "PJ-fanboy", on the other hand?

Even so, it really shows the maturity of these boards that such a heated topic is discussed that civilly (mostly).

Berandor

 

[Piratecat]

While I'm sure it'd have been complained about anyway, I think if they'd left Glorfindel in, and had him be the elf at Helms Deep, it'd have been better. Someone more established as a warrior, from Rivendell, etc.

Sorry about this - but once I started thinking about him as part of the hit singing duo Simon and Glorfindel, I can no longer picture him without a blonde afro. I don't miss Glorfindel one little bit.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I follow their logic behind some of the changes (doesn't mean I necissarily agree, but I love the adaptation anyway). Moving Shelob was a really good idea; I'm glad they're trying to keep the timeline accurate.

Leaving out Saruman seems sloppy -- too many loose ends. They opened TTT with a FOTR flashback; why not open ROTK with the TTT sequence? Instead they start with the Smeagol/Deagol scene (which while interesting, I'm not sure is as important as Saruman). I'm wondering exactly what was cut from the Houses of Healing, as well (as reported by Newsweek). If it was just a bit of the Faramir/Eowyn love story, I could see that for pacing reasons, but if it's the Aragorn healing scene I'll be disappointed -- I always thought that the "hands of the king are the hands of a healer" line was important exposition for the people of Gondor, and it would provide a good link for the aethelas lines from the first movie, but I could see them dropping this, because the audience already knows he's the King.

Guess I'll just have to wait . I trust PJ to put together a good overall production. He'll make some changes I might not necessarily agree with, but I'm sure I'll like the whole, and we'll at least get an extended DVD to fix the cuts.

 

[BSF]

You know, BSF (if I may call you that ), you are the kind of purist I really respect and relish.
I can see not agreeing with the changes, but understanding the reasons for them (heck, some of the changes don't appeal to me, as well, and I'm not sure whether PJ & Co. were right about them).
It really shows an open mind, to me, that you are able to distance yourself fro your love of the book enough to at least make an effort at understanding the changes. That you come to a different conclusion is fine, because that makes it possible to discuss it on a basis that doesn't evolve into a flame war.

JRRN, I was surprised to find you in a similar camp. Judging from your first comments, you seemed to be the kind of "PJ-basher" that is so often found these days. Perhaps I came over as "PJ-fanboy", on the other hand?

Even so, it really shows the maturity of these boards that such a heated topic is discussed that civilly (mostly).

Berandor

Berandor,
Thanks. I take that as a big compliment.

For the record, BSF is a simple way to abbreviate my screen name and is fine. Using my real name of David is fine as well.

 

[kengar]

I'm one of the few (though not only) Tolkien fans I know that thought including Glorfindel in FOTR was a mistake. I've never heard a conclusive explanation of what he was even doing there. I mean, the guy DIED during the fall of Gondolin for crying out loud. He really served no purpose in the story. Yes, yes. He held back the Nazgul at the river for a few minutes while Frodo rode across the ford, but even that wasn't a necessary element to the story.

 

[BSF]

It is debatable where the "mistake" could be.

Glorfindel did fall in battle against a Balrog when Gondolin was sacked.

Glorfindel also faced off the Witch-King in the Battle of Fornost. It was at that time that he prophesied about the Witch-king "Far off yet is his doom and not by the hand of man will he fall." It's all in appendix A.

Since Tolkien rarely reused Elvish names, the question is: Is this the same Glorfindel? Could it be an error of Christopher Tolkien's to include the fall of Glorfindel in the Silmarillion? Could it be that Glorfindel returned from the West? This is an unanswered issue. Were there two Glorfindel's or just one? Looking at it, I see two reasonably developed Elven characters with the same name. Or I see one well developed Elven character that died and came back. In the end, it isn't an important debate for resolving why Glorfindel, as a story element, was in FotR.

He was in it because Tolkien had established a powerful, historical Elf-lord that could strike fear into the Nazgul, and he was a character that had prohesied the fall of the Witch-King in TA 1975, 1044 years before Eowyn and Merry brought about the Witch-King's final rest. Glorfindel was a powerful enough Elf-Lord that it makes sense that the Nazgul would be struck in dismay by his sudden appearance at the Ford of Bruinen. This was necessary to remove the Nazgul as a threat for a short time. Otherwise, some of the Nazgul would have been wiped out by the raging water at the ford, and the rest would have just waited for the Fellowship to leave Rivendell later.

Tolkien could have written it differently, but he didn't. Thus, we have something to debate.

 

[kengar]

I'd forgotten about the Witch King prophecy.

Still, as many folks in the DVD appendicies mention, Tolkien was not really edited and -as a resyult- some of his narrative structure suffers. A good editor would probably have told JRRT to lose Glorfindel or develop his role in the story more.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I'd forgotten about the Witch King prophecy.

Still, as many folks in the DVD appendicies mention, Tolkien was not really edited and -as a resyult- some of his narrative structure suffers. A good editor would probably have told JRRT to lose Glorfindel or develop his role in the story more.

And a good writer would have told him to stuff it. Glorfindel was one of my favorite characters. While I agree, leaving him out of the movie may have been a good idea, leaving him out of the book would not.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

JRRN, I was surprised to find you in a similar camp. Judging from your first comments, you seemed to be the kind of "PJ-basher" that is so often found these days. Perhaps I came over as "PJ-fanboy", on the other hand?

Even so, it really shows the maturity of these boards that such a heated topic is discussed that civilly (mostly).

Berandor

Thanks. I'm not really a PJ basher, I think he made an excellent movie, but I cringe at some parts every time I watch it. I could make what seems a long list of problems, but they amount to little in a 3 hour (or six, if you count both films) movie(s)). Here's a short list:

Theoden going to Helm's Deep to hide instead of it being a sound military decision.

The entire Arragorn over the cliff/warg thing.

Faramir.

Elves at Helm's Deep.

Shield Surfing (Reminds me of Skeet Surfing in "Top Secret.")

The missing Barrow Downs.

The hobbits tricking the ents into attacking Saruman. Grrrr.

Faramir.

Gimli as nothing more than comic relief.

Did I mention Faramir?

There are others, but in a 3 hour movie, this doesn't account for much. The thing is, it would have taken very little effort to fix. Sadly, PJ didn't make an attempt.