Pathfinder 2E PF2: Second Attempt Post Mortem

[Retreater]

I don't know what her particular rank is at, but I watch my wife's rogue do that multiple times a fight literally every game. So your characterization of that is clearly incorrect and/or based on some set of assumptions not self-evident.

(And no, she doesn't have hot dice; if anything she runs to the contrary).

Let's look at a lowly, basic goblin. That's a DC 17 Acrobatics check to tumble through its space. So the iconic Merisiel (a 1st-level rogue) has +7 Acrobatics - a 50% chance. If she fails, that's the end of her action. Granted, at 3rd level, she has a +11 to Acrobatics, which is a 70% chance to tumble through the goblin's space. Sure, that's a pretty good chance.

But let's look at her at 5th level (+14 Acrobatics) vs. a grimstalker (5th level creature with a 25 Reflex DC). She has less than a 50% chance of tumbling through. She's just at a 50/50 chance versus a djinn (24 Reflex DC).

And if you're not facing opponents of your level or lower, the chances drop significantly.

(and I don't think invisible is a condition in and of itself).

Sure is, according to Archives of Nethys.

Our GM's just given us three up front at the start of a session normally, and I don't recall anything particularly untoward happening. I'm not sure I've ever seen someone need to use one to auto-stabilize.

Well, if you're getting three times the number of Hero Points at the start of every session, that might explain why you think Pathfinder 2E is fairly balanced.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Let's look at a lowly, basic goblin. That's a DC 17 Acrobatics check to tumble through its space. So the iconic Merisiel (a 1st-level rogue) has +7 Acrobatics - a 50% chance. If she fails, that's the end of her action. Granted, at 3rd level, she has a +11 to Acrobatics, which is a 70% chance to tumble through the goblin's space. Sure, that's a pretty good chance.

But let's look at her at 5th level (+14 Acrobatics) vs. a grimstalker (5th level creature with a 25 Reflex DC). She has less than a 50% chance of tumbling through. She's just at a 50/50 chance versus a djinn (24 Reflex DC).

And if you're not facing opponents of your level or lower, the chances drop significantly.

I went and looked; at level 14 she's got a +26; an adult red dragon has a +25 Reflex. So she's got a fifty-fifty there, and can try twice if she needs to and still get in a strike.

Sure is, according to Archives of Nethys.

Not in the sense the other four you mentioned are; it makes you undetected.

Well, if you're getting three times the number of Hero Points at the start of every session, that might explain why you think Pathfinder 2E is fairly balanced.

We also don't get any more during the session, so if your games are lasting longer than three hours (ours normally run about six) you're actually giving out more. I also go a lot of sessions without using more than one.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Here's one attempt to boil down the problem with PF2:

They assume people need balance so badly they will put up with a shipload of restrictive detailed nonsense.

Ah yes, the restrictive straitjacket of COMBAT CLIMBER~! strikes again!

The game is written from the perspective of "if even one thing ends up slightly better than projected everything's a failure"

I don't think everything in the book is absolutely balanced, and I think a lot of the guides out there would say something similar: there are still "ideal" choices if you want to maximize everything, but the classes are balanced in such a way that you don't need to do this to be effective. Instead you're likely to have a fairly effective character unless you are actively trying to make a bad one.

So, any time you veer off the game's expected play style, you end up with a ship load of cruft but not the balance it was so painfully designed to uphold.

I mean, this is demonstrably not true? @kenada has told you this multiple times, but you never seem to listen to him. You can totally play PF2 in other ways and it functions just fine. The GM prep overhead will be different, but it doesn't break at all.

 

[Retreater]

We also don't get any more during the session, so if your games are lasting longer than three hours (ours normally run about six) you're actually giving out more. I also go a lot of sessions without using more than one.

Isn't the RAW Hero Points to give 1 per character at the start of the session, then 1 to a specific character (not ALL characters) per hour?
If that's the case, assuming you have a 4 member group, you're getting 12 Hero Points per session. In a 4 hour session you should get the initial 4 (one for each character) and 3 more for a total of 7 for the entire session, among the whole party. So close to twice the number of Hero Points, all available the whole time during a session.
I could've read the rule wrong, so let me know if I did.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Isn't the RAW Hero Points to give 1 per character at the start of the session, then 1 to a specific character (not ALL characters) per hour?
If that's the case, assuming you have a 4 member group, you're getting 12 Hero Points per session. In a 4 hour session you should get the initial 4 (one for each character) and 3 more for a total of 7 for the entire session, among the whole party. So close to twice the number of Hero Points, all available the whole time during a session.
I could've read the rule wrong, so let me know if I did.

I don't know myself, so I won't comment on it, but your math seems wrong. If we were getting 1 each at the start, and another five total amongst us (because six hours of play) we'd have nine, instead of 12, which is not a massive difference. As it turns out, we only start with 10 (because one of the four players only gets 1 for reasons complicated to go into, but suffice he has no issues with it), so we're only one up.

But again, note I've had a number of sessions where I didn't even use one.

(To be up-front, we're an abnormal PC group; because we're dealing with Age of Ashes, which is notorious for having some rough spots, the GM had us each be hybrids. That said, prior to this game we had a more limited run game where we only got up to 8th level where we were playing single-class characters, and most of what I've said in various places was just as true there, barring things specific to the higher levels we now are).

(As an aside, its been instructive seeing when being a hybrid mattered and when it didn't. The group consists of an Investigator/Witch, a Sorcerer/Oracle, a Redeemer/Bard (my character) and a Fighter/Rogue (my wife's character). On the whole, I tend to think its been most beneficial for my wife's character because of being able to take advantage of the steady-state synergies there, though its also true that the group rarely runs dry of magic (Its actually an unusual session where I use most of my bard slots, though that may have to do with my particular approach than anything intrinsic to the combination). The one thing that stands out though is we never lack for buffs, scrying or movement spells).

 

[Retreater]

I don't know myself, so I won't comment on it, but your math seems wrong. If we were getting 1 each at the start, and another five total amongst us (because six hours of play) we'd have nine, instead of 12, which is not a massive difference

Didn't know you were doing 6 hour sessions. My math was assuming a 4 hour game.
But now that you're saying "complicated reasons" about why a player gets a different amount of Hero Points and just the length of this tangential conversation illustrates the point of Hero Points being a "mini game" - which was the original point.

 

[kenada]

RAW, you should give out one hero point per hour.

I hated dealing with hero points. The example triggers are too narrow. I just gave them out for doing cool things. Massive crit? Have a hero point. Entertained the group? Have a hero point. GM feels like someone ought to have a hero point? Have a hero point. GM forgot to give out hero points? Have a hero point, have a hero point, and everyone have a hero point. Bleh.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Didn't know you were doing 6 hour sessions. My math was assuming a 4 hour game.

I'd mentioned it in my post talking about Hero Points.

But now that you're saying "complicated reasons" about why a player gets a different amount of Hero Points and just the length of this tangential conversation illustrates the point of Hero Points being a "mini game" - which was the original point.

But it really isn't. The "complicated reason" is a social-dynamic issue that could have applied to other things, and once you set a process for awarding Hero Points its hardly a "mini-game"--its just a game process like how often you get rests or when spells recover, and I doubt most people would call those a "mini-game". You can make an argument about using that term for stealth the way it's handled, since there's a lot of back and forth, but it seems an odd term for, well, "The GM gives you Hero Points under this circumstance."

 

[Thomas Shey]

RAW, you should give out one hero point per hour.

I hated dealing with hero points. The example triggers are too narrow. I just gave them out for doing cool things. Massive crit? Have a hero point. Entertained the group? Have a hero point. GM feels like someone ought to have a hero point? Have a hero point. GM forgot to give out hero points? Have a hero point, have a hero point, and everyone have a hero point. Bleh.

And there's no overwhelming reason to do it in a more complicated way, any more than there is with Savage World Bennies; just set it at a level where your comfort lands and move on. The only reason to do it in a more complicated way is social engineering.

 

[Justice and Rule]

RAW, you should give out one hero point per hour.

I hated dealing with hero points. The example triggers are too narrow. I just gave them out for doing cool things. Massive crit? Have a hero point. Entertained the group? Have a hero point. GM feels like someone ought to have a hero point? Have a hero point. GM forgot to give out hero points? Have a hero point, have a hero point, and everyone have a hero point. Bleh.

Yeah, this is how I generally deal with any sort of party currency based on roleplaying. Doing cool naughty word gets you benefits because that's what we're here to do. I loved handing out Inspiration in the same way because why not?

Though I do like the new L5R giving Void Points when you fail something because of a character flaw. It's an interesting consolation prize.