Pathfinder 2E PF2E Gurus teach me! +

Ah, the nut of it is in the Sustain a Spell activity. You can spend one action to sustain a spell—which means you can sustain up to three spells, if you don't mind not doing anything else. Or two spells, and do one other thing (which will probably not be casting a new spell, as most spells cost two actions).

And here I had assumed you could only concentrate on one spell at a time, just like in 5e, because of that word being there. Like learning a foreign language similar to your own but a couple essential words have very different meanings!
Also, sustaining a spell isn’t something you normally have to do. Many of the things you'd have to maintain concentration for in 5e just last for their duration.

Generally, the spells that give an option to sustain them, have it so you can do something new with the spell on your turn.

For example "bless" gives some bonuses for characters in an area for 1 minute. If you spend an action to sustain it later, you can increase the radius of the area by 5 feet. If you don't sustain it, the spell still lasts for 1 minute just at the starting radius.
 

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Thomas Shey

Legend
And it is decidedly "after a fashion", though, if you pick the right archetypes and general feats, perhaps it is less noticeably so until the mid levels when the proficiency scaling stalls out and you run out of ways to boost it.

It's certainly nowhere near the bananapants things 5e enables.

=Honestly, the gap isn't that much more noticeable than it is between a Fighter and a Champion. Which doesn't mean it doesn't exist (especially given how crits work in PF2e) but I suspect someone who wasn't super-focused wouldn't even notice it.
 


Staffan

Legend
One thing I'd note is the moment to moment flexibility the sorcerer has in spell selection as a spontaneous caster (who can use any of spell slots they have of a particular level to cast any spell they know at that level) vs. the cleric as a prepared caster (who has to assign each spell slot to a particular spell as part of daily prep).
Right. But that doesn't really help with the sorcerer as primary healer issue. You can do it, but it'll cost a very big portion of your available options. A cleric can often adapt to the situation. "Oh, we're going up against an assassin's guild? Sounds like it's neutralize poison time."

It was a bad enough problem trying to play an Oracle as a primary healer in PF1. At least there you only needed to use about one slot per spell level on condition relief. But in PF2, trying to use the basic 3rd-level neutralize poison on the poison of a 12th level creature is almost certain to fail, because you need at least a 5th level spell to counteract it (unless you crit).

Spontaneous casting is great offensively, because you can try to figure out the chink in your opponent's armor and hammer that until it breaks. My (primal) sorcerer has had many fights where he has hit a powerful enemy with multiple slow spells because even if they succeed on their save, I have used two of my actions to remove one of theirs, and that's a good deal when the rest of my party still gets to act. But the tradeoff is that I don't have all that many spells, which is bad from a defense/healing POV. And the divine list is heavily skewed toward defense and healing, which makes it less useful for a sorcerer.

If I were put in charge of a hypothetical Pathfinder 2.5, one of the changes I'd make is to combine the condition relief spells into one or maybe two (one for physical ailments and one for mental/spiritual ones) spells. That and figure out a way to make PC skills more "pyramidal".
 

payn

Legend
Right. But that doesn't really help with the sorcerer as primary healer issue. You can do it, but it'll cost a very big portion of your available options. A cleric can often adapt to the situation. "Oh, we're going up against an assassin's guild? Sounds like it's neutralize poison time."

It was a bad enough problem trying to play an Oracle as a primary healer in PF1. At least there you only needed to use about one slot per spell level on condition relief. But in PF2, trying to use the basic 3rd-level neutralize poison on the poison of a 12th level creature is almost certain to fail, because you need at least a 5th level spell to counteract it (unless you crit).
A lot of this is looking at spell allotment and I think the healing skill and feats take a lot of the heavy lifting off casting in PF2. Not all of it mind you, but much of it. The game is essentially an encounters game disguised as a daily resource attrition one.
Spontaneous casting is great offensively, because you can try to figure out the chink in your opponent's armor and hammer that until it breaks. My (primal) sorcerer has had many fights where he has hit a powerful enemy with multiple slow spells because even if they succeed on their save, I have used two of my actions to remove one of theirs, and that's a good deal when the rest of my party still gets to act. But the tradeoff is that I don't have all that many spells, which is bad from a defense/healing POV. And the divine list is heavily skewed toward defense and healing, which makes it less useful for a sorcerer.
I think this a very good thing for folks to pay attention to. Those riders will matter in a fight and its very different than 5E and PF1. For some, it might even feel weak because you are aiming for the rider but hoping for a remote crit.
If I were put in charge of a hypothetical Pathfinder 2.5, one of the changes I'd make is to combine the condition relief spells into one or maybe two (one for physical ailments and one for mental/spiritual ones) spells. That and figure out a way to make PC skills more "pyramidal".
Sounds interesting. +1
 

=Honestly, the gap isn't that much more noticeable than it is between a Fighter and a Champion. Which doesn't mean it doesn't exist (especially given how crits work in PF2e) but I suspect someone who wasn't super-focused wouldn't even notice it.
Maybe. I can say, having played at two ends of the AC pool (giant instinct barbarian vs heavy armor fighter with a shield), the impact of the AC difference was extremely noticeable to me.

On the barb, it eventually felt like I was getting nuked from space by basically anything that wasn't dead by the end of my turn. Had a lot of hp, so it was kind of manageable, but my PC was consistently getting blasted by anything that could reach me. On the fighter, would usually get hit a couple times a round, but rarely crits unless I was fighting a boss or I got flanked (or the dice rembered they hate me).

But to your point, it could be that I noticed it because I was looking for it.
 

Staffan

Legend
A lot of this is looking at spell allotment and I think the healing skill and feats take a lot of the heavy lifting off casting in PF2. Not all of it mind you, but much of it. The game is essentially an encounters game disguised as a daily resource attrition one.
The Medicine skill can take a lot of the heavy lifting off of hit point healing, at least once you manage to get Continual Recovery and maybe Ward Medic going. That's not going to happen until 6th level or so, though – assuming you focus strongly on boosting Medicine (Expert at 3rd level, Continual Recovery at 4th, Ward Medic at 6th – you could do it at 4th if you use your 3rd level general feat to grab one of the skill feats). But it doesn't help with most conditions. You can Treat Poison and Treat Disease, but that only gives a bonus to the next save. Frightened and Sickened require a Master-level feat, and Blinded, Deafened, Doomed, or Drained require a Legendary feat. If you want to treat other conditions, you need the Medic dedication which means you're giving up at least some class feats.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Maybe. I can say, having played at two ends of the AC pool (giant instinct barbarian vs heavy armor fighter with a shield), the impact of the AC difference was extremely noticeable to me.

On the barb, it eventually felt like I was getting nuked from space by basically anything that wasn't dead by the end of my turn. Had a lot of hp, so it was kind of manageable, but my PC was consistently getting blasted by anything that could reach me. On the fighter, would usually get hit a couple times a round, but rarely crits unless I was fighting a boss or I got flanked (or the dice rembered they hate me).

But to your point, it could be that I noticed it because I was looking for it.

I got done not too long ago playing a game where we were all doing hybrids, and I had a Champion/Bard and my wife had a Fighter/Rogue. She noticed the difference between our defenses more than I did in our offenses, but its hard to tell whether that's because its more visible on the defense end or because she's more sensitive to that sort of thing than I am (either or both seems plausible to me).
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
To learn a spell, you use the Learn a Spell exploration activity, and you must have the spell in writing or someone who can teach it to you. Note that if you learn the spell from a scroll, that does not consume the scroll. There are no rules I know of for how much getting access to the spell costs, but you could use half the scroll price as a guideline (which would be the same as buying a scroll, learning the spell, and then selling the scroll). There are also costs for the learning process itself, as explained in the link.

The same rules are used for e.g. clerics learning uncommon/rare spells.
Good solution for the value of gaining a new spell.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
Is this legal?

My Wizard trains the Nature skill, relating to Primal magic.

The Pathbuilder "lets" my Wizard choose Heal as a spellbook Primal spell.

(It helps the character concept − expressing good fate, sunlight, and magic.)
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
To clarify, is the P2 Wizard:

old school vancian (where each spell must be prepared separately and lost when cast),

or new school vancian (where one uses slots spontaneously from the selection of preparations)?
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
To clarify, is the P2 Wizard:

old school vancian (where each spell must be prepared separately and lost when cast),

or new school vancian (where one uses slots spontaneously from the selection of preparations)?

Old School Vancian. Prepare each slot with a specific spell. Same for every prepared spellcaster.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
Old School Vancian. Prepare each slot with a specific spell. Same for every prepared spellcaster.
Old school vancian? Uggh.

Oh well, I have 1e friends who will be happy.

At least there are other nonvancian classes to choose from?

But are these nonvancian classes as appealing as the Wizard is, in terms of versatility, effective spells, and game support − or is the Wizard "privileged" like it is in 3e?
 


W'rkncacnter

Adventurer
Am I noticing correctly that at higher class levels, every spell is autoscaling (heightening?) in power?
only for cantrips and focus spells. leveled spells require you to upcast that spell to get the heightened effect. prepared casters upcast by preparing the spell in a higher level slot - spontaneous casters can only upcast a spell by learning it at the level they want to cast it at, unless that spell is one of their signature spells, in which case they can cast it with any applicable slot they wish.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
You can make it work after a fashion with a wizard or sorcerer with an Archetype Dedication to a fighting class, but unless its its a free archetype game that's not a cost-free option.
What is an "archetype"? Is it something like a multiclassed class or a prestige class?
 

W'rkncacnter

Adventurer
What is an "archetype"? Is it something like a multiclassed class or a prestige class?
archetypes are basically pf2e's form of multiclassing, yeah. you can pick up archetype feats in place of class feats to pick up features from outside your class. there's archetypes for every class and then a bunch of unique archetypes which i guess you can compare to prestige classes sort of
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
archetypes are basically pf2e's form of multiclassing, yeah. you can pick up archetype feats in place of class feats to pick up features from outside your class. there's archetypes for every class and then a bunch of unique archetypes which i guess you can compare to prestige classes sort of
Does one give up a class level to take a level in an archetype?
 

W'rkncacnter

Adventurer
Does one give up a class level to take a level in an archetype?
no, no - once you pick a class, you're in it. you get class feats as you level up, and you can take an archetype feat instead of a class feat. you still level up in your class, you just give up a feat from it to take a different feat.
 

no, no - once you pick a class, you're in it. you get class feats as you level up, and you can take an archetype feat instead of a class feat. you still level up in your class, you just give up a feat from it to take a different feat.
In addition, Archetypes can be of other core classes or they can be more narrowly thematic (e.g. monk archetype vs. dragon disciple archetypes).

Archetypes typically have a dedication feat and then a series of downstream feats, if a player wants to invest more in that archetype along the way.

For multiclass Archetypes (i.e. the core classes), the best tools are usually either unavailable to the archetype, or only available at significantly higher levels. For example, a monk's flurry of blows is something a monk gets at character creation. If someone wanted to go monk archetype, they'd have to meet the attribute prereqs, select the dedication feat using a class feat slot, and then wait until character level 10, before they could use another class feat to select the flurry of blows archetype feat.

The result is that you don't really see anything like the 5e hexblade dip. In many cases, multiclassing on PF2e winds up being an increase in breadth of options at the cost of potency of options.
 
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