Pathfinder 2E PF2E Gurus teach me! +

Staffan

Legend
Is this legal?

My Wizard trains the Nature skill, relating to Primal magic.

The Pathbuilder "lets" my Wizard choose Heal as a spellbook Primal spell.

(It helps the character concept − expressing good fate, sunlight, and magic.)
No, unless there are other shenanigans going on wizards only cast Arcane spells.

Your character concept sounds like it could benefit from the Magaambiyan Attendant and later Halcyon Speaker archetypes, or a version of them attuned to your setting. In Golarion, the Magaambiya is one of the pre-eminent magic schools, with a focus on both arcane and primal magic.
 

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Staffan

Legend
Old school vancian? Uggh.

Oh well, I have 1e friends who will be happy.

At least there are other nonvancian classes to choose from?
PF2 is similar to 3e in this regard. Clerics, druids, and wizards are old-school Vancian (albeit with unlimited cantrips), and bards and sorcerers are spontaneous casters with a small repertoire that they can cast in a more flexible fashion.
But are these nonvancian classes as appealing as the Wizard is, in terms of versatility, effective spells, and game support − or is the Wizard "privileged" like it is in 3e?
The core rules have two spontaneous casters. The bard uses the Occult spell list, which is fairly versatile but light on physical damage. The sorcerer can use any of the four spell lists, depending on their bloodline – draconic sorcerers use arcane magic, fey or elemental ones use primal magic, angelic or demonic ones divine, and aberrant ones occult. In addition, they gain one spell per spell level "for free", sometimes poaching them from other spell lists (e.g. fey sorcerers get some mind-affecting stuff, which is otherwise not primal magic's forte).

Spontaneous casters are more flexible at the cost of long-term versatility. They are strong offensively (because they can cast the same spell repeatedly), but won't have many niche spells. That said, my primal sorcerer has gotten a lot of mileage out of some utility spells like speak with animals and wall of stone.
What is an "archetype"? Is it something like a multiclassed class or a prestige class?
An archetype is akin to a multi- or prestige class.

The way they work mechanically is that each archetype has a Dedication feat, e.g. Pirate Dedication, Magaambiyan Attendant Dedication, or Wizard dedication. This is always a class feat, so if your wizard wants to be a Magaambiyan Attendant they take the Magaambiyan Attendant Dedication feat instead of a Wizard feat. They still gain the regular class progression (proficiencies, spellcasting, etc.), but instead of learning a special wizard trick, they learn the dedication feat.

Each archetype also has a number of other feats that delve deeper into the archetype. These are often, but not always, also class feats (some are skill feats). Generally, you can't take a second dedication feat unless you've taken at least three feats in your first archetype, but some archetypes build on one another and bypass that rule (e.g. Halcyon Speaker builds on Magaambiyan Attendant, so you don't need to "finish" the Attendant archetype before taking the Speaker dedication).

The core book only has the multi-class archetypes. The Advanced Player's Guide has a lot of "general" archetypes (e.g. Pirate, Medic, Acrobat), while more flavorful and setting-based ones show up in other books – particularly in the Lost Omens line.
 




Staffan

Legend
IIRC, 4e's multiclassing feats let you swap out one of your encounter/daily powers for an at-will/encounter power of the other class, but downgraded to encounter/daily. PF2's multiclassing is more specific regarding the specific abilities it allows, and instead of reducing use of the multiclass ability it usually shifts them to higher levels.
So it's sort of like 4e, but not quite.
 



Thomas Shey

Legend
In addition, Archetypes can be of other core classes or they can be more narrowly thematic (e.g. monk archetype vs. dragon disciple archetypes).

Archetypes typically have a dedication feat and then a series of downstream feats, if a player wants to invest more in that archetype along the way.

For multiclass Archetypes (i.e. the core classes), the best tools are usually either unavailable to the archetype, or only available at significantly higher levels. For example, a monk's flurry of blows is something a monk gets at character creation. If someone wanted to go monk archetype, they'd have to meet the attribute prereqs, select the dedication feat using a class feat slot, and then wait until character level 10, before they could use another class feat to select the flurry of blows archetype feat.

The result is that you don't really see anything like the 5e hexblade dip. In many cases, multiclassing on PF2e winds up being an increase in breadth of options at the cost of potency of options.

As an example, spellcasting dedications are about one spell level down from their full-blown counterparts. Because of how PF2e works, that's still useful but a Fighter with a Sorcerer Dedication is not as good a spellcaster as a full blown Sorcerer (and if you want to do a fighter-mage type, you're probably better off doing it the other way around--a Sorcerer with a Fighter Dedication).

Either way, there's a nontrivial cost to taking Archetypes (though some people feel the Wizard Class Feats are underwhelming enough that its not that painful there).
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
The core book only has the multi-class archetypes. The Advanced Player's Guide has a lot of "general" archetypes (e.g. Pirate, Medic, Acrobat), while more flavorful and setting-based ones show up in other books – particularly in the Lost Omens line.

The specialty books involving new classes also tend to have some Archetypes that are adjacent to the new classes they have--for example Guns and Gears besides the Gunslinger and Artificer classes and their Dedications, has a number of Archetypes primarily of use to those classes.
 


Roll20 is tokens on a battle mat. If you want any automation of the complex systems, Foundry is your best bet.
Roll20 for PF2 is a step above Owlbear Rodeo.
We currently use Roll20 for 5e, so I'm familiar with it. I was mostly wondering how well does PF2e run on it.

You're not the first person I've heard say Foundry takes care of some of PF2e's complexity, could someone elaborate on that?
 
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payn

Legend
We currently use Roll20 for 5e, so I'm familiar with it. I was mostly wondering how well does PF2e run on it.

You're not the first person I've heard people say Foundry takes care of some of PF2e's complexity, could someone elaborate on that?
Sure. The character sheets have a lot of drag and drop capability. Also, there are easy button clicks that add your level to all your stats and rolls, but also apply any penalties due to conditions. There is a bit more but thats the skinny.
 

We currently use Roll20 for 5e, so I'm familiar with it. I was mostly wondering how well does PF2e run on it.

You're not the first person I've heard say Foundry takes care of some of PF2e's complexity, could someone elaborate on that?
Had done roll20 for like 7 years for various 5e games.

From a player side, I can tell you right now I'd rather set up a level 10 PF2e character (with class feats, ancestry feats, skill feats, general feats, gear and all) on Foundry, than set up a level 3 5e character on roll20.

It does more, looks better, and performs better. It's a generational difference in platform capabilities, and the gap continues to grow with each new release.

Edit: and all that was true even before their official partnership with Paizo as the go-to VTT for PF2e.
 




Retreater

Legend
We currently use Roll20 for 5e, so I'm familiar with it. I was mostly wondering how well does PF2e run on it.
Oh, I was saying that Roll20 basically is just tokens on a map for PF2e. The character sheet and die rolling is functional, but only barely above what dice bots can do.
You're not the first person I've heard say Foundry takes care of some of PF2e's complexity, could someone elaborate on that?
Oh yes. Yes, I can. :)
1) Imagine having every monster, class, feat, magic item completely at your fingertips to look up in the compendium (by default), free, ready to drop and drag.
2) Imagine having a browser to search for monsters by level, filtered by type, size, etc. Or magic items. Or spells. Ready to drop and drag, for free.
3) Imagine buying a PDF from Paizo and clicking a button to have maps with dynamic lighting, tokens placed, journal tabs, etc., ready like a professionally adapted Roll20 adventure. For the cost of the PDF you bought. (Thanks to FryGuy - these are available again.)
4) Imagine putting conditions on your character token, having those conditions automatically impact your character (Like if you're frightened 2, that automatically deducts from your AC, saves, attack bonuses, etc.)
5) If you have persistent damage, it rolls the damage for you and reminds you to roll your save.
6) Damage can be put on a token, absorbed by shields if needed.
7) You can roll group checks. You can roll saves for a group of monsters hit by a fireball, for instance.

Not only is Foundry the best VTT to experience PF2, in my opinion, it's the best way to play the system period.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Its a bit mix and match as you go, yes? There's nothing stopping one from taking feats as long as the pre-reqs are there?

There's two slightly different cases. Class Archetypes you can only take one of according to the core book; far as I can tell, these are all the Archetypes that are not essentially Multiclassing Archetypes. You can take more than one Multiclass Archetype (or combine any number of them with a Class Archetype) but at least all the ones I've seen you have to do a three-feat buy-in before you can take a second, so there's no "I just grab the first feat for what I want and move on" like the one-level dips in 3e.
 

JThursby

Adventurer
Its a bit mix and match as you go, yes? There's nothing stopping one from taking feats as long as the pre-reqs are there?
There is the opportunity cost of having to take an Archetype's Dedication as a feat in and of itself, but there are ways around that (an Elf heritage and a Human feat respectively). Archetypes in 2e are more like a very light and casual version of Prestige Classes in 3.5, in that you exchange some of your classes features whenever you go into them, but since it's only feats you eat up your core features remain on track. They're also very flexible, as just like any feat you can Retrain into or out of them as you so choose.
 

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