PHB Cleric = Unbalanced?

[Goddess FallenAngel]

Okay, someone help me with this.

Direct me to another thread where this has been discussed if there is one, 'cause I just don't understand.

A recent WOTC poll listed the Cleric as one of the most powerful classes in the PHB (if not the most powerful, I can't find the article anymore).

I've heard plenty of people say that it's "overpowered" and "broken".

I think the cleric, per the RAW in the PHB, is balanced. I know from personal experience that if you start introducing house rules and supplements, anything can be min-maxed to end up broken, so I'm not talking about that.

Do you think the cleric per the PHB RAW is overpowered/broken/whatever? If so, why?

By the way, please, I just want a few personal opinions, not "teh cleric is teh suck" with no explanation, like I've gotten from other communities. Thank you.

EDIT: Please note that I am asking for the PHB cleric rules only. Not how they are overpowered because of supplements, house rules, because DM X does this. Thank you.

 

[Nightfall]

It's very simple from a mechanics standpoint:

Clerics unlike their "cousins" druids, get proficency in ALL armors. Thus they can become heavy built "tanks" even though their BAB, while not exceptional, makes them far superior to the fighting skills of bards, wizards and sorcerers (all of whom have access to spells above 4th level.)

Clerics get spellcasting, and along with the, the ability to manipulate positive/negative energies. Wizards can too but not innately, nor can bards, or sorcerers. Again their cousins can spontenously summon, but that's just something natural.

Finally they have on their sides, gods. Let's face, no matter how epic you are, gods will kill you.

 

[mcrow]

I think as long as you stick to the WoTC stuff all the classes & races are pretty balanced. It's only when you get into some of the third party stuff you get unbalanced classes & races.

 

[Goddess FallenAngel]

It's very simple from a mechanics standpoint:

Clerics unlike their "cousins" druids, get proficency in ALL armors. Thus they can become heavy built "tanks" even though their BAB, while not exceptional, makes them far superior to the fighting skills of bards, wizards and sorcerers (all of whom have access to spells above 4th level.)

But... fighters get all armor too. And fighters get a higher BAB and more feats to make them more useful in battle than clerics. Is there something I'm overlooking that makes the armor more important for clerics?

Clerics get spellcasting, and along with the, the ability to manipulate positive/negative energies. Wizards can too but not innately, nor can bards, or sorcerers. Again their cousins can spontenously summon, but that's just something natural.

I always thought that the manipulating positive/negative energies was just a "here, have a fancy description for why you can spontaneously cast cure/inflict spells". In other words, flavor rather than mechanic. What else does it do that makes it more powerful than druidic spontaneous casting?

Finally they have on their sides, gods. Let's face, no matter how epic you are, gods will kill you.

Err... yeah, you have me on that one. 50 points to you.

 

[Nightfall]

*tries REALLY hard not comment on balance and pointing out some unbalanced stuff WotC has done in the past...and some times presently...*

 

[Raylis]

Currently I'm playing a 14th level cleric that's virtually right out of the PHB (1 or 2 spells from Complete Divine and the Variant Turning) and think the class is fine in the RAW. It's meant to be a healer/party support class (though not as much as the bard). With the proper spells I can hold my own in battle, but a lot of those are short duration (i.e. Divine Power).

 

[Goddess FallenAngel]

Like I said, I was just looking at the cleric from the PHB, RAW.

I fully agree WOTC has done some unbalanced stuff. In fact, my DM has outlawed one of the PrC's I've played because of how broken it was in play.

I just can't quite wrap my mind around why so many people seem to find the RAW cleric one of them. I'm confuzzeled.

 

[Nightfall]

Excuse the double posting...

Goddess,

Yes the reason it MAKES clerics more powerful is the fact they are an armored caster. Perhaps not with every blasting spell available, but the fact they can do this WITHOUT penalty, makes them much more viable in combat. Fighters can NEVER hope to do the following with mere feats alone:

Summon Allies from beyond the worlds
Call down the wrath/power of their gods
Aid allies by increasing their base Ability scores
Heal party members in a matter of seconds.

Show me any feat that can replicate that and I'll say you win.

As for the whole positive/negative thing, what it does is also feat dependent but with some divine feats, it's EXTREMELY possible for a cleric to expend that energy to increase his/her spellcaster level, grant limited immunity to energy, or heal allies within ranged WITHOUT expending spells. Also the mechanic is good for when the cleric needs to heal (or in the case of an evil NPC cleric heal undead).

While the feats themselves are not from the raw, they certainly can be an aspect with the positive/negative energy, especially when you consider the fact expending spell slots to convert spell energy to heal or harm can be very helpful in and out of combat.

 

[Goddess FallenAngel]

Yes the reason it MAKES clerics more powerful is the fact they are an armored caster. Perhaps not with every blasting spell available, but the fact they can do this WITHOUT penalty, makes them much more viable in combat. Fighters can NEVER hope to do the following with mere feats alone:

Summon Allies from beyond the worlds
Call down the wrath/power of their gods
Aid allies by increasing their base Ability scores
Heal party members in a matter of seconds.

Show me any feat that can replicate that and I'll say you win.

I guess I was looking at it along the lines of yes, a cleric can summon allies (but so can a wizard); yes, a cleric could call down the wrath/power of the gods (but that's something subject to the DM, and not in the RAW - my DM doesn't do anything not in the RAW, for example); and the last two are class nitches that the cleric was made to fill.

But, wizards can't do anything in any type of armor, so that gives the cleric a step up, and fighters, you are right, can't do any of the above.

I didn't really look at it like that before.

As for the whole positive/negative thing, what it does is also feat dependent but with some divine feats, it's EXTREMELY possible for a cleric to expend that energy to increase his/her spellcaster level, grant limited immunity to energy, or heal allies within ranged WITHOUT expending spells. Also the mechanic is good for when the cleric needs to heal (or in the case of an evil NPC cleric heal undead).

While the feats themselves are not from the raw, they certainly can be an aspect with the positive/negative energy, especially when you consider the fact expending spell slots to convert spell energy to heal or harm can be very helpful in and out of combat.

I'm more looking at just the PHB RAW, though. I think both metamagic and divine feats... well, that's a topic for another thread. Divine feats aren't in the PHB, so I'm trying not to consider them.

I think that the spontaneous casting of cure/inflict are very useful, but by the RAW, they are at the cost of other spell slots, so it's balanced. Granted, evil clerics can cure their undead, but you can cure your companions and the druid can summon reinforcements, so it evens out.

 

[Klaus]

Clerics get access to all armor and shields. Like Fighters and Paladins. Better than any other class.

Clerics get a decent HD, surpassed only by Barbarians, Fighters and Paladins, and equal to Rangers and Monks (but the cleric has a far better defense).

Clerics get a decent BAB (by 20th level they'll only be 5 points behind the purely martial classes).

Clerics get two good saves. Only Monks surpass them, and they are equal to Barbarians, Bards, Druids and Rangers on this regard. Also, Wis, which benefits Will saves, is their spellcasting ability.

Clerics get access to 9 levels of spells, on par with Wizards and Sorcerers. Unlike previous editions, they have decent blast spells, as well as virtual monopoly on healing magic. Also, their spellcasting ability (Wis) benefits one of their good saves.

Clerics get proficiency in all simple weapons. While not great, these include some very decent damage dealers, like the morningstar. Access to the War domain (or being an elf) can grant you even better armament.

Clerics get Turn Undead, which is either useless or completely bypass undead challenges (depends on the HD of the undead).

Clerics get two domains, which grant two special powers and extra spells per day, on top of their considerable spellcasting prowess. The powers can range from a free Weapon Focus with a martial weapon to a Smite ability, to a huge Strength boost, to heightened caster levels.

The only area where clerics lag behind is in skill points. And even then, they're no worse than Fighters, Paladins, Sorcerers and Wizards.