PHB II - the new kinds of spell

[Nyeshet]

Sadly, it was started with Melfs acid arrow in the PHB. IMHO the only time a conjuration attack spell should ignore SR is when it drops a giant, called, nonmagical rock on the victim allowing for a reflex save and DR. It seems there is a race to get spells and abilities that get around AC, DR, ER, saves & SR. all at once.

I think a lot of it comes from the desire to make a difficult encounter at higher levels. They give creatures higher and harder stats (AC, DR, SR, etc) to cater to those who can squeeze every synergy bonus out of the various spells and magic items available at their level - but then they discover that many others cannot quite make it against those creatures at that level, so they grant them spells, magic items, etc that allow them to make it. Also, I think there is some confusion on exactly where they want the system to go, in part due to the classic separation of the spells into multiple schools. I pointed out on a WotC board thread a while back that except for a few spells all of the Divination school spells can be placed in other schools, effectively reducing the system to seven schools. There is already so much overlapping between schools based on spell description that making the overlap mechanical was an obvious next step. Some of the schools just don't seem to have a clear conceptual division between them - based on description, anyway.

What, really, is the difference between Conjuration (Acid) and Evocation (Fire)? One is an energy? But by the RAW Acid is also an energy (along with cold, electric, fire, and sonic). Some developers seem to view it this way and see little wrong with making acid behave like the energy the RAW says it is, while others look to RL and see acid as a substance and so treat its conjuration differently. If they would just come to a consensus I doubt there would be much of an issue - at least on this matter. There are many other matters to consider as well in this increasingly hodge-podge style system of magic.

 

[ceratitis]

well these are from this site's very own house rules (not mine,shamlessly swiped):

Seed Spell [Metamagic]
Your spells start out weak, but grow into powerful creations.
Benefit: When casting a seeded spell choose one of the following models:
1) The spell appears minimized (all numerical variables are always 1), becomes consistent (as the feat) after the second duration increment, and then becomes maximized after the 4th duration increment and remains maximized throughout its duration.
2) The spell appears minimized, becomes consistent after the first duration increment, and becomes empowered after
the 2nd duration increment and remains so throughout its duration.
3) The spell appears suppressed (as in an Antimagic field), appears and becomes minimized after the second duration
increment, becomes consistent after the 4th, becomes maximized after the 6th, and becomes maximized and empowered after the 8th and for the rest of the duration.
4) The spell appears shrunken (the area is 50% smaller than normal), becomes normal size after the 1st increment, and becomes widened (as the feat) after the 2nd.When a spell's growth would create new effects, begin those effects at that time as appropriate. Instantaneous spells and spells whose effects already change with duration cannot be seeded. A seeded spell takes up a spell slot equal to the slot normal for that spell.

Slow Spell [Metamagic]
You can cast spells more slowly and carefully to gain power.
Benefit: Casting a Slowed spell requires the caster’s complete concentration; they always require very dramatic Verbal and Somatic components, and Concentration checks cannot be made for this spell, to avoid disruption, attacks of opportunity, or any similar benefit. In addition, spells with a casting time of 1 action now take 1 full round to complete (taking effect in combat at the start of the spellcaster’s next action) and those with a casting time of 1 round take 2 full rounds. Spells with a casting time longer than 1 round cannot be enhanced with this Feat. The benefit is that the spell takes up a spell slot one level lower than normal. You must be able to cast the non-enhanced version of a spell to be able to use this feat on that spell.

pretty similar concepts dont you think?
Z

 

[Nightfall]

*wards against 4e* but they do sound like neat new spell types I'd like to see used more often.

 

[Nellisir]

There are two kinds of spell which I've seen for the first time in PHBII which I think break new ground in brilliant spell design, and I don't say that often. ...
Secondly, I love the spells that work over a period of time like Call of Stone: a 4th level spell, it slowly turns the target into stone. It lasts for level/2 rounds, and you have to make a Fortitude save every round. Any time you fail the Fort save you get -2 Dex and a 10ft penalty to movement. If you fail four or more saves you turn to stone. So much more flavourful than 'save or die', but still keeping the element of risk (and the opportunity to take some dramatic action to attempt to offset the effect).

Agreed. Sleep would work well with multiple saves; ie round 1 fatigued, round 2 exhausted, round 3 asleep. Might allow the HD restriction to relax so it's useful past 3rd level again.

And the more I deal with spell schools, the more I dislike them. Conjuration in particular is a unfocused mish-mash; positive energy is conjured, but fire energy is evoked, and negative energy can be almost anythinged? Ugh.

 

[Nightfall]

I like Necromancy. So I'm happy.

 

[Gold Roger]

As with other parts of the game, the PHB2 takes many aspects of the spellsystem that have to long been neglected into interesting new directions. I just hope they don't let these new directions settle dust in some corner, but expand further on them (wether in further products or in a *dum-dum-dooo* eventual new edition).

 

[Knightfall]

The more I read about this book, the more I want one!

 

[Felon]

IMHO the only time a conjuration attack spell should ignore SR is when it drops a giant, called, nonmagical rock on the victim allowing for a reflex save and DR. It seems there is a race to get spells and abilities that get around AC, DR, ER, saves & SR. all at once.

Conjuration spells are generally less potent than evocation spells, but have the advantage of bypassing SR. This seems like a reasonable and balanced design.

I think a lot of it comes from the desire to make a difficult encounter at higher levels. They give creatures higher and harder stats (AC, DR, SR, etc) to cater to those who can squeeze every synergy bonus out of the various spells and magic items available at their level - but then they discover that many others cannot quite make it against those creatures at that level, so they grant them spells, magic items, etc that allow them to make it.

A bigger problem is that some creatures have very high SR for their relative CR (mind flayers, rakshasas) and a few are just outright immune (golems). A mage who elects to use conjuration spells has the advantage of being equipped to deal with such monsters.

What, really, is the difference between Conjuration (Acid) and Evocation (Fire)? One is an energy? But by the RAW Acid is also an energy (along with cold, electric, fire, and sonic). Some developers seem to view it this way and see little wrong with making acid behave like the energy the RAW says it is, while others look to RL and see acid as a substance and so treat its conjuration differently. If they would just come to a consensus.

The fact that it's acid or fire is not relevant. An orb of fire spell doesn't allow spell resistance than an orb of acid spell. That's because they're both conjuration spells. Evocation spells are defined as creating something out of nothing, thus an evocation spell attacks the target directly. OTOH, conjuration spells summon something from somewhere else, and in the case of offensive spells like melf's acid arrow, they hurl that something at the target. Thus, the spell attacks indirectly and SR does not apply. The spell is just the gun. The thing that's summoned (be it acid, lightening, fire, ice, a knife, or--to use Frank's example--a boulder) is the bullet.

 

[Thotas]

Count me in on really liking the sound of the channelled spell. Always liked the drama of a movie or comic-book character "gathering" power, with the implication that they're can let go any second, but that the longer they delay the more kick the effect will carry.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

TI'm not one for speculating on 4e-ness, but I think these two kinds of spell show a dramatically good direction that 4e magic could take when it eventually rolls around. I could just picture disintegration working in a similar manner to Call of Stone, and a whole range of evocation spells with swift/standard/full round/two full round options for scaling them just for starters.

I'm starting to think that there is one of two things going on here. Either:
1. D&D 4E is just around the corner, and so the designers have been given the green light to mess with 3.5 as much as they like to try out new ideas, test things, and generally brainstorm the hell out of the system while there's still time.
2. D&D 4E is being held off by the realization that they don't need to release a new edition in order to make major changes to the system, because the system is already flexible and modular enough that you can pick and choose the rule sets you're using. Books like Incarnum, Tome of Magic, and the various innovative parts of more recent books are sneaking in a 3.5.5 edition that leaves the core alone and provides "plug and play" supplements that bring packaged rules updates to the table.

It's my intuition that the latter is likely more like what's going on. Now that they've exhausted the "hey, let's do a book about dwarves again" potential of 3.5, they're being forced to innovate in order to keep people buying the books. This has borne fruit, and 4th edition will probably not happen until they feel like they've pushed 3.5 as far as it can bear. I.e. until their innovations fail to be as nifty as they have been lately, and the public gets bored with their books, necessitating an edition change to kick up the purchases again.