PHB II - the new kinds of spell

[Lorehead]

I honestly don't see where the complaints about the orb spells are coming from. Third-level spells such as fireball and lightning bolt deal 1d6 hp/CL to multiple targets, with a Reflex save for half. The orb spells also do 1d6 hp/level damage, but are one level higher, affect only a single target, and do no damage if the ranged touch attack misses. Their damage doesn't compare at all to what a fighter or barbarian can do to a single target at the same level, without using up limited resources.

If they were evocation spells subject to SR, wouldn't they be significantly underpowered? No one seems to disagree with the basic concept of conjurations that ignore SR. Why, then, is their ignoring SR a problem?

Or Force! Can't forget the Orb of Force... the instantaneous conjuration spell that flings a non-magical orb of force at your target

This, I think, relates more to the other thread on this forum about how much description we want with our crunch. "Force" in D&D acts much like a "force field" in science-fantasy. Most of the time, it behaves like a non-magical object. In everyday English, the word almost always refers to a physical, non-magical force. Since we accept that forcecage and wall of force can be disintegrated but not dispelled, don't allow spell resistance and don't go away in an antimagic shell, what is so implausible about orb of force behaving the same way?

 

[Felon]

I think you are far more generous than I in this case!

I don't think the damage scalability of those spells was a problem at all - it was a feature.

Maybe the lack of damage scalability can be called a feature from a design-aesthetic perspective, but from a practical perspective the spells should have a scaling aspect that makes them as appealing as a big-damage evocation spell. For reasons already stated, extended duration didn't cut it.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Maybe the lack of damage scalability can be called a feature from a design-aesthetic perspective, but from a practical perspective the spells should have a scaling aspect that makes them as appealing as a big-damage evocation spell. For reasons already stated, extended duration didn't cut it.

The higher level ones weren't just about the damage though, were they? They were actually battlefield control spells (obscuring vision, hampering movement) which also did some damage as well as a nice bonus.

If they had only been about damage, they would have been weak - but that wasn't all that they were about.

I say again - conjuration was originally given a nice which included small amounts of damage which worked over an extended duration and ignored spell resistance (and incidentally hampered other casters with continuous damage). Taking it into the big blasty damage is trespassing directly on Evocations schtick. It is equivalent to giving evocation summoning and teleportation and area control spells (which thankfully hasn't happened in such an egregarious manner).

Personally, I've never thought spell schools really added anything to the system since they were first introduced in 1e (none of the fantasy literature I used to read in those days had anything even broadly similar) and I'd be happy to see them just disappear completely. But while they exist I like to see a little more consistency in their application.

Cheers

 

[I'm A Banana]

Where?

Over There!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AH!

 

[frankthedm]

Final Fantasy has had a slowly petrifying spell for over a decade.

Yep. I remember it from SNES FFIV [FF2]. The wind fiend did that one a lot IIRC.

The dual school spell idea has been one i like. It has to be watched carefully, but it allows for some interesting spells. Grave mist seems a touch too potent IMO, but maybe that is just me. I’d rather see a 4th level Necro evoke that works like flamestrike dealing ½ fire & ½ negative energy.

I like Necromancy.

So do I.

Lorehead
If they were evocation spells subject to SR, wouldn't they be significantly underpowered? No one seems to disagree with the basic concept of conjurations that ignore SR. Why, then, is their ignoring SR a problem?

The basic concept is:

Conjuration: These spells are usually not subject to spell resistance unless the spell conjures some form of energy. Spells that summon creatures or produce effects that function like creatures are not subject to spell resistance.

I strongly disagree with any spell that goes against this.

 

[DarkKestral]

Conjuration spells are generally less potent than evocation spells, but have the advantage of bypassing SR. This seems like a reasonable and balanced design.

A bigger problem is that some creatures have very high SR for their relative CR (mind flayers, rakshasas) and a few are just outright immune (golems). A mage who elects to use conjuration spells has the advantage of being equipped to deal with such monsters.

However, in reality, Conjuration gets umpteen non-combat spells that render it useful outside of battle while evocation has... Light and it's ilk. And that's about it. Conjurations also net you summons (which are a great way of dealing w/ immune creatures like golems, for example) and teleportation... none of which are really covered by other schools that well. (Even Illusion's Shadow Conjuration spell isn't incredibly powerful, when you realize what the belief chance is only 20-30 percent or so.) However, Conjuration, Transmutation, Necromancy, and Abjuration are all allowed to step on Evocation's toes in a lot of cases, with spells that are almost as good, but bypass SR. If SR's really a problem, then SR bypassing should be allowed in the case of a number of evocation spells. Shunting the spells that have that quality into other schools then defeats the purpose of evocation as a spell school focused on attack spells that involve direct HP damage as a spell effect.

Personally, I think the answer IS the double-school spells, but instead of having access to one give you spell access despite having the other school as forbidden, you suffer the drawback of a spell getting taken off your castable list if any of it's schools are forbidden to you. However, as a benefit, if you have spell focus/greater spell focus/spell penetration/greater spell penetration in multiple schools, you get the given bonus for EACH school, so you can have Spell Focus (conjuration) and Spell Focus (evocation) stack for a total of +2 to a Dual School Conjuration/Evocation. (a good spell line for this type would be the Orb spells, actually) Benefit, but actual drawback too.

Universal spells would then be the ones where school-based effects are selectable, so therefore, none of them really apply to the base spell.

 

[Li Shenron]

Secondly, I love the spells that work over a period of time like Call of Stone: a 4th level spell, it slowly turns the target into stone. It lasts for level/2 rounds, and you have to make a Fortitude save every round. Any time you fail the Fort save you get -2 Dex and a 10ft penalty to movement. If you fail four or more saves you turn to stone. So much more flavourful than 'save or die', but still keeping the element of risk (and the opportunity to take some dramatic action to attempt to offset the effect).

That is actually a GREAT idea! Finally something innovative that isn't done for mechanical reasons only.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Future "Complete" Book Eagerly Awaited

I like the channelling spells too. I can't wait for Complete Channeller.