Phb Ii

[Ranes]

Actually, the players are part of my game but I am a part of their story. Rules give us the framework around which we can agree with how that story develops.

As for the rest of your last post, it... Are you sure you're not Boardtroll? I mean, if you're going to tell your players not to bring their books, because they don't matter, wouldn't it be better to suggest that they didn't buy them in the first place?

 

[boredgremlin]

Anthropomorphise all you like. 3e doesn't 'try' to do anything.

Your assertion that DMs ought to be story tellers is highly subjective. DMs should be referees is an equally valid, if no less subjective view.

Back on topic, the MM2 is mostly stuff that hadn't appeared elsewhere. The DMG2 is (apparently) mostly stuff that hasn't appeared elsewhere. To make a book called PHB2 that is mostly stuff that has appeared elsewhere, seems to me to be making a product that doesn't quite stack up against those with which it would be most closely associated and, for that reason alone, I think such a book would be a bad idea. If, on the other hand, you make a PHB2 mostly new stuff, it competes with UA and Complete X, so it's still a bad idea. My plea to WotC would be: Repackage player material, sure; just don't call it PHB2.

Dig a little deeper. Almost nothing in the MM2 was original. And the fiend folio was worse. The DMG2 tells you how to DM some games? If you cant tell a story, learn the rules and handle personalities then no book will teach you to do it. Its a money grabber, nothing more.

Also i argue whether the DM's primary role as story teller is optional. You can play marrow wind if you want an impartial refferee. Thats not D&D. D&D is stories and roleplaying, being in crazy situations and working your way out. Even the original (so horribly crappy it never got bought at all) wargame that D&D was based on had stories.

If all you want is a referee for the RAW then go buy heroquest, dragonstrike, or any of the other board games based on D&D that came out in the mid 90's. Or just play the baldurs gate and icewind dale video games.

D&D tells interactive stories. For a cheesy wargame play computer games or warhammer. I love warhammer. If all you like is turn based strategy games with miniatures you would love warhammer too, just dont try to force it onto my D&D.

 

[boredgremlin]

Actually, the players are part of my game but I am a part of their story. Rules give us the framework around which we can agree with how that story develops.

As for the rest of your last post, it... Are you sure you're not Boardtroll? I mean, if you're going to tell your players not to bring their books, because they don't matter, wouldn't it be better to suggest that they didn't buy them in the first place?

Well with 157 posts in the last 2 months, yes i am pretty sure i am not a board troll. I have around 400 on the same name on the WoTC boards too.

I never told them to buy any books. WoTC told them to buy books, and optional books, and add on books. 3rd party publishers tried to entice them to buy this book and that book. I never told them to buy anything. A PHB, and maybe a DMG are good. You dont need em. I have 2 rookies in my game who dont own a single book and dont plan to ever buy one. Guess what? They game just fine. I have a rules lawyer in my game i am just itching to drop, because he doesnt play a game or tell a story, he plays a video game. With real life dice. Thats it. I wouldnt drop my rookies if it killed me. I love em both.

You dont need any of the books to play. The DM needs some books for structure. The players dont need a single one.

 

[Ranes]

Dig a little deeper. Almost nothing in the MM2 was original.

Really? Perhaps if I qualified what I said accordingly: hadn't been printed elsewhere for 3e. But I don't have the book and it's a couple of years since I read my friend's copy.

And the fiend folio was worse. The DMG2 tells you how to DM some games? If you cant tell a story, learn the rules and handle personalities then no book will teach you to do it. Its a money grabber, nothing more.

I'm not talking about the FF. And I am always prepared to read DMing advice. And the DMG2 is not just advice (which, if nothing else, may be of assistance to less experienced DMs). It's supposed to have a lot of time-saving stuff in it. Your assertion that it's nothing more than a money-grabber is as pejorative as it is disingenuous.

Also i argue whether the DM's primary role as story teller is optional. You can play marrow wind if you want an impartial refferee. Thats not D&D. D&D is stories and roleplaying, being in crazy situations and working your way out. Even the original (so horribly crappy it never got bought at all) wargame that D&D was based on had stories.

I don't know the D&D wargame but I am familiar with Morrowind, a typical - if untypically well-crafted - instantial CRPG that has nothing to do with this discussion. Without wanting to get into the semantics of what is or isn't a story, what I'm saying is that the DM is not required to be a story teller. I know this to be a fact, because it's the way I DM. My players have been coming back to play for years and we have about one hundred years of RPG experience between us.

If all you want is a referee for the RAW then go buy heroquest...

Thanks but I don't need to. I got a free copy, because I was one of the developers. But, with the exception of the boardgame version of HQ, all the games you mention are instantial. That is to say that all the things that can happen in them have been pre-determined. This is not the case with a game of Dungeons & Dragons comprised of human players who are free to decide what they want to do next.

If all you like is turn based strategy games with miniatures you would love warhammer too, just dont try to force it onto my D&D.

Hey, I worked on Warhammer, too! I do like those sorts of games. I just prefer RPGs. And relax. I'm not going to force anything on your D&D.

 

[boredgremlin]

Lol sounds like you agree with me and just wont admit it. The DM's job is to tell a story and keep it driving. To make your players lean forward with a gleam in thier eyes and ask questions in character. Not because they want to be play a game but because they are caught up in the story. A great game doesnt have players saying "my character says this", it has players just talking and reacting, playing along and getting cought up, like a good book or movie.

I suppose as an author i might have different standard but if my players dont edge forward and forget they are playing a game at least once per session i feel like i have failed. This is supposed to be an interactive story. The DM is the playwright. We set the stage, do the bit characters, the players react to the world, we react to thier reactions. A great game is like acting, and writing. Everyone tells thier story and reacts to everyone elses story.

No one remembers the battle where they said afterwords "well we followed the RAW, it was a good game" people remember the sessions with a living breathing world, real bad guys and good guys with real motives and goals that people can relate to. The games where players go home asking each other what the BBEG or NPC might do next and what thier character wants to do next session. A good game should never end with anyone saying "i want this feat, or that magic item". It should end with players talking about the characters, the story and the world. They should never have to mentions rules or books, just the story. All the rule work is for us DM's. The players should be able to play a good game and never touch any book if they dont want to.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I thought gamers were complaining about color hardcovers pushing up the price of books?

This is part of the reason publishing books can be frustrating; for every gamer that screams foul at a color hardcover there's another crying about perfect-bound, B&W books.

It's a damned if you do/don't story but that's one that has long been being sung and isn't over yet. I know a lot of people complained about Warhammer FPRG 2nd ed and the Bestiary being full color driving up prices but I've heard those are good sellers so once again... say one thing, do another, and watch what happens.

 

[Ranger REG]

Lol you think something has to be usefull to be bought? Just look at the enviromental books. Very few campaigns are set solely in one enviroment and even the ones that are did just fine before those books. I ran a campaign based on a northern tundra enviroment with complete accuracy 6 years before frostburn came out. How? I got online and looked at national geographic for arctic enviroments, read everything they had and added onto the rules where absolutely neccesary. Oddly not much had to change. Just my random monster tables and some of the rules for exposer had to be made more severe. Did i need to spend 40$ on another book? Hell no. I flipped throught that book. Not a single usefull idea. I am running a semi arctic campiagn now and i still didnt see one thing worth using.

Did people spend money on frostburn? Hella. Thats why they made more. The whole book was a few items that will never be used, a few PrC's that suck, a couple of rehashed monsters from 2e and a few spells.

A lot of people buy new books just to save themselves the effort. I think that DM's buy most of the books, players buy a few if they see something they want to use in one. And most of them are bought by people who thought it looked neat and didnt really page through it.

Players handbook 2. Will they make it? Yes. Will people buy it? Yes. Will it be even remotely neccesary? No.
They will rehash old spells from older editions and other books, they will reprint classes, equipment, and probably PrC's from other books. They will give us 50 more feats that add +2 to this skill and +2 to that skill, when we could easily let a player take a feat and add +2 to any 2 skills of thier choice, making all those feats useless. They will reprint some of the spells from books we have allready bought, but not enough of those spells to make us not have to flip through 10 books looking for a specific spell because we want something new.

Will you need the PHB2? No, not at all. It wont even make your life any easier. It will no doudt have some broken class, and probably a broken PrC. Just to make your life harder. Will you buy it? Maybe. Will some tool in your group buy it so you have to deal with the consequences? Hell yes. Live it, learn it, love it. WOTC hates DM's. They have done thier best to make use non essential, and when that failed they have tried all the tricks up thier sleaves to make our lives harder. And they will do it again with a players handbook 2.

LOL!

Your statement seem to contradict WotC's desire. You say WotC hates DMs, yet you think the products being bought by WotC are mostly DMs.

???

I may question many of WotC's business decisions but if people want stuff like Frostburn, WotC is going to serve it, even when I'm not buying it. I can only hope that WotC will come around to what I like, even when other people won't buy it.

 

[boredgremlin]

Lol its a self loathing kind of relationship. Like a cutter. They cater to us, but hate us. I suspect some of the designers had abusive DM's in the past and are using this opportunity to get a little payback.

 

[Ranger REG]

Lol its a self loathing kind of relationship. Like a cutter. They cater to us, but hate us. I suspect some of the designers had abusive DM's in the past and are using this opportunity to get a little payback.

So which of the designers have been abused by bad DMing?

I cannot believe there is a climate of anti-DM sentiment inside WotC. I am shocked!

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Lol its a self loathing kind of relationship. Like a cutter.

A hair cutter?