PHB only PCs?

[Herschel]

Yeah, the Character Builder is the stuff.

I'm a bit confused by the Paladin. If he's building to maximize his limited healing, why not encourage him to rebuild as a Warlord? Better healing, better power choice (when PHB-only) for a melee character and a whole lot of cool. He may not get plate, but he gets a lot of niftiness along the way and he can multiclass in to Paladin for a bit of flavor, if he wants.

 

[Cor_Malek]

Hm. Power level aside, some notes on how I see this:

DnD was for me the meeting ground with people who normally played all kinds of other RPG's. Our designated DM had a lot of resources, someone had the psion book, someone had PHB II, someone MM II - you get the idea. To avoid my-PC-is-better-then-yours situations, we always decided what books to include, and anything other - didn't happen.
The main reason for this was that it would be impossible to get things done otherwise. Reading during session is a bad idea. Lending people books... Um, I'm fine with it most of the time, but both me and our DM need the person to be trusted book-keeping wise. Grease it, or bend the cover like a butterfly - and I will hunt your grandma down, feed her to dogs, and then bash your skull in with her titanium hip. Not necessarily in that order, mind you.
Right, where was I... ah, the DDI! The great thing about DDI is that it makes this problem go away. Everyone can access the data, there's no need to carry 3kg of books-worth around, and the risk of genocide is reasonably low. You have access to it, you might as well use it.

Also - what is wrong with PHB warlock? Me likey.

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

First:
Most every campaign I run starts with PHB1 only. Other sources are allowed as the player's explore the world and discover other cultures.

I especially encourage this for new players since it is often easier to discover the game and role-play when they are using characters that are easy to identify with. Everyone in Western culture should be somewhat familiar with the idea of a wizard or fighter. What the hell is a Wilden Ardent?

Second:
Everyone saying Paladin and Warlord are weak are putting the cart in front of the horse.

New players should not be worried about minmaxing/charoping!!! They should be worried about identifying with their character and learning the rules. Leave it to the DM to adapt to the party.

If a gal wants to play a paladin, let her play a paladin. Don't go houseruling her at-wills. Don't put a little voice in her head that makes her doubt herself or her character.

Third:
Just play the game. There is no one way or best way to do this. Just play, as often and as long as you can. The only way to learn is to do, there is no other way.

 

[draquila]

Yeah, the Character Builder is the stuff.

I'm a bit confused by the Paladin. If he's building to maximize his limited healing, why not encourage him to rebuild as a Warlord? Better healing, better power choice (when PHB-only) for a melee character and a whole lot of cool. He may not get plate, but he gets a lot of niftiness along the way and he can multiclass in to Paladin for a bit of flavor, if he wants.

We have a pretty weird party. Since we were all new to the game I made things simple for them and just asked them to pick a race/class they liked and pick one of the build templates that the PHB suggests. We ended up with:

• Orc Great Weapon Fighter (he really wanted to be an Orc, so I allowed that)
• Tiefling Warlock (star pact)
• Dragonborn Paladin (he had a WoW background and believed Pallies were capable healers)
• Human Archer Ranger
• Eladrin War Wizard

It's only after we started playing that I realised everyone (except for the ranger) is kind of an off-spec. The defenders want to be striker/leader, the striker (warlock) wants to be a controller, the controller wants to be a striker... and we have no proper leader.

But I'm not sure whether switching class to warlord would sit well with us now, we've created really elaborate and intertwining backstories for everyone. I'm not sure from the looks of things the Fighter alone is enough as a defender on his own as well.

Maybe multiclass is the way to go (with warlord being the primary). I'll talk with him about it. Thanks!

 

[draquila]

First:
If a gal wants to play a paladin, let her play a paladin. Don't go houseruling her at-wills. Don't put a little voice in her head that makes her doubt herself or her character.

I agree with most of what you said, and thanks for the advice, but during our game the starlock (and this is a girl who hasn't even played RPG video games before) did ask, "Why does my character feel weaker than the others?" and pointed out how Dire Radiance is at +2 which looks a lot lower than other powers.

Now I know Dire Radiance attacks Will which is usually lower, but I also know that when I chose her stats for her I struggled with MAD more than the other characters. If even someone as inexperienced as her seemed to notice an imbalance (but she did keep getting rotten rolls, as well), then I think it seems there is reason for me to house rule a bit here for the sake of balance and fun?

 

[TerraDave]

Its been a while since I brought in new players, but yes, they will make mistakes and take a while to figure out what works. Your approach is right, be super flexible in terms of retraining (ie allow rebuilding) and changing charecters.

I remember back in the 90s, using this 2E player option book, a theif charecter was made without backstab....

EDIT: And this anecdote also reminds me that they did notice power disparities pretty fast. (that is not the same as saying you should embrace some hard-core charopting).

 

[Storminator]

When we started out we rebuilt all our PCs at 2nd level, and again at 4th. Once we had a better grasp of play, we all wanted to tweak something. I suggest letting players fiddle with their characters when they level. Keep the backstory, keep the concepts, but rejigger the numbers. If you post some here, you'll probably get some useful advice.

I find that there isn't a lot of overload with the Character Builder. You can peruse it at leisure outside of gameday, and the options you pick are easy to use at the game, even without the rulebooks they came from (there are some exceptions - summons, animal companions, etc).

PS

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

I agree with most of what you said, and thanks for the advice, but during our game the starlock (and this is a girl who hasn't even played RPG video games before) did ask, "Why does my character feel weaker than the others?" and pointed out how Dire Radiance is at +2 which looks a lot lower than other powers.

Dire Radiance is Con v For, 1d6 + Con damage.

A Star Pact, Scourge-build Warlock should have its highest ability score in Con (I'm not doing any excessive minmaxing/charoping magic here; the PHB tells you this explicitly), which should make that a +3 to +5 bonus depending on how you generated ability scores.

If you used the standard array, the 16 should go in Constitution for a +3 (since the Tiefling race only bumps Int and Cha). If you customized scores with point buy, I'd expect an 18 in Constitution for a +4. If you rolled, then her relative weakness compared to the other characters in your game is likely due to the randomness inherent in rolling.

Edit: I just reread this after posting, and it read a little harshly to me. I hope you don't take it like I'm lecturing you. Imagine us having this discussion together in a pub with a pint, if that helps.

 

[deadsmurf]

We have a pretty weird party. Since we were all new to the game I made things simple for them and just asked them to pick a race/class they liked and pick one of the build templates that the PHB suggests. We ended up with:

• Orc Great Weapon Fighter (he really wanted to be an Orc, so I allowed that)
• Tiefling Warlock (star pact)
• Dragonborn Paladin (he had a WoW background and believed Pallies were capable healers)
• Human Archer Ranger
• Eladrin War Wizard

It's only after we started playing that I realised everyone (except for the ranger) is kind of an off-spec. The defenders want to be striker/leader, the striker (warlock) wants to be a controller, the controller wants to be a striker... and we have no proper leader.

But I'm not sure whether switching class to warlord would sit well with us now, we've created really elaborate and intertwining backstories for everyone. I'm not sure from the looks of things the Fighter alone is enough as a defender on his own as well.

Maybe multiclass is the way to go (with warlord being the primary). I'll talk with him about it. Thanks!

Some ideas if you're looking into using the same character ideas, but changing their classes to be more what they THOUGHT they were looking for -

The Paladin MIGHT rather be a Strength based Cleric - (and still call himself a paladin of his god if he wishes) - it would get the party a leader, and if he wanted to be a guy who hits hard for his god while healing he'll likely be happy.

The Orc fighter might be happier as a Barbarian from player's handbook 2, who is great a doing a lot of damage, and some versions can take up some defensive capabilities.

The wizard might want to be a sorceror from PHB2 - a spellcasting striker without the evil vibe of a warlock, and who is good at a little bit of control. One of the dexterity builds is likely a good idea.

The warlock can actually be a decent controller if built correctly (but you pretty much need all the expansion material) - but just switch 'em out into a wizard, which tieflings are great at, and the player will likely be happier.


In general terms each player should at absolute minimum have a 16 in their attacking stat, but really should have an 18, that will also make your players happier - also giving them +1 implements/weapons soon to make them more accurate.

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

When we started out we rebuilt all our PCs at 2nd level, and again at 4th.

This is a good idea. It also provides a nice adventure and roleplaying hook as the players discover their heroism and develop as characters due to their unique lifestyle.

I also recommend not planning for or expecting a years-long campaign with these characters. Construct your early adventures to only last 4-8 play sessions, and then give you players opportunities to try out new characters and builds. Giving them their first TPK is only one way to accomplish this.