PHB2 Classes simply better?

[Shin Okada]

Paladin is not bad at all.

A Paladin can be benefited from various ability scores. But you don't need to have all of them. Depends on ability score distribution, some paladin may not do something other paladins can do. Still, he is an efficient character.

Regarding AC, even without taking feats, a Paladin tend to have at least equal or even better AC than a warden with some AC improving feats. In overall low-AC is a significant weak-spot of PHB II defenders and leaders. Paladin class has better NADs, too.

Paladin's powers do better damages comparing to those of warden. And channel divinity may increase the hitting power more (well... Tempus).

Lay on Hands is a kind of "Automated External Defibrillator for the party's leader". It is an insurance. When the party leader (or all the leaders of the party) are dying, a paladin can wake one up with an minor action.

 

[jbear]

If it's any consolation, there is a Paladin feat from Dragon Magazine which makes your Divine Challenge do 2 Radiant Dmg when you place it on your undead foe. Thats an instant hit... an undead minion killer, and as Undead are usually vulnerable to radiant damge, that increases to 7 or 12 damge and will disable many undead creatures auras or regenerations... all that without rolling a dice! (and only looking at heroic tier)

Dragon 371, Cleansing Challenge: very nice!

 

[wayne62682]

I think the problem is that with PHB1 classes WotC erred on the side of caution because it was a new edition and they were afraid of making classes "too good". After this they realized that hey, we should have done more with features X, Y and Z and start to incorporate it into later books. That's why PHB2 classes seem to be better - by the time PHB2 was being done, WotC had realized that they went TOO FAR on the side of caution with PHB1 and upped the ante a little.

 

[outsider]

To be honest, the worst class balance problems are in the PHB1. Fighters and Rangers are basically the most powerful classes in 4th ed so far, and Paladins are among the weakest. The Warden may be better than the Paladin, but he's not better than the Fighter.

 

[Regicide]

To be honest, the worst class balance problems are in the PHB1. Fighters and Rangers are basically the most powerful classes in 4th ed so far, and Paladins are among the weakest. The Warden may be better than the Paladin, but he's not better than the Fighter.

The paladin doesn't have a "power" book for it yet. Avengers etc. are "balanced" against classes that do.

 

[Akaiku]

The paladin doesn't have a "power" book for it yet. Avengers etc. are "balanced" against classes that do.

Avengers are divine. In theory, they get love in the same book as the paladins.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Martial training erases the STR issue.
Plate proficiency/enfeebling strike erases the AC issue.
Paladins start with more feats than anyone else, erasing the surges issue.
This leaves needing Str, Wis, and Cha.
Of these, Str is only important if it's your primary, otherwise you can do without, and Wis only serves one class feature, and not your most important ability in terms of defense.

Paladins start with more feats? Where are you reading this? What surge issue are you referring to as well?

A lot of these suggestions on how to fix paladins to be more in line with other classes seem to involve them spending feats to do so. If you do that you are still not equal as those other classes had the options of spending their feats however they want rather than having to use them to patch design holes causing them to be weak in the first place.

 

[Kordeth]

Paladins start with more feats? Where are you reading this? What surge issue are you referring to as well?

Presumably the fact that paladins start with proficiency in all armors and shields; the equivalent of 7 feats.

Paladins start with 10 + Con surges, more than any other defender. I assume linking feats to that was a typo.

A lot of these suggestions on how to fix paladins to be more in line with other classes seem to involve them spending feats to do so. If you do that you are still not equal as those other classes had the options of spending their feats however they want rather than having to use them to patch design holes causing them to be weak in the first place.

I agree, which is why I've just overhauled the paladin into a more A-shaped form for my games.

 

[outsider]

The paladin doesn't have a "power" book for it yet. Avengers etc. are "balanced" against classes that do.

I'd say straight PHB1(no supplements) fighters and especially rangers actually come out ahead of the PHB2 classes as far as powerlevel goes. Dual Wield Rangers are busted right out of the PHB, and Two Hander fighters are good defenders that do striker level damage. Both of these classes get even more powerful when you start adding supplements, but even in their base forms I still consider them to be the most powerful classes in 4th edition.

 

[Regicide]

Avengers are divine. In theory, they get love in the same book as the paladins.

It'll probably be tough love while the paladin gets showered in rainbow sprinkles.

When the PHB2 came out would anyone want to buy it to play a class out of it if they were all weaker than the PHB1 classes that got buffed from Martial Power?

I think Divine Power will level the playing field a bit. Even if that means that they're putting hoists under the field and cranking it so high even the nose bleed seats can't see it.