DracoSuave
First Post
All armors and shields and enfeebling strike. Which is a lot of 'Don't Hit Me'
That it was, thanks for catching that for me![/QUOTE]
PHB2 Classes simply better?
- Thread starter Otterscrubber
- Start date
All armors and shields and enfeebling strike. Which is a lot of 'Don't Hit Me'
That it was, thanks for catching that for me![/QUOTE]
The warden's marking is if anything a little on the weak side. They can't mark from range - I believe that all other defenders can, although in the swordmage's case their range is limited - and the effects of the mark aside from the -2 are lackluster.
Consider the situation of a defender running up to a foe and marking it. On the foe's turn, it shifts away and then charges another PC (eating the -2 to hit from the mark). If the defender is a warden and the monster is further than 25 ft away, nothing happens. If the monster is within 25 ft, the warden can pull it 5 ft closer - after the attack.
Meanwhile, a fighter would get a free attack when the monster shifts away. A paladin deals radiant damage to the monster. A swordmage gets to reduce the damage or gets a free attack or teleports the monster back to him.
The warden's mark is nice vs lots of melee foes, or against a stationary foe. In most other cases I would say the other defenders do their job better.
Well, the warden's utility is better in this case. And I do think that there has been some power creep with the utility powers... There's some lvl 2 warlock utility that is flat-out superior to a level 6 warlock utility. And that's in the same class! The paladin has other advantages, though, in that his attacks deal more damage (the warden is probably the least damaging class around) and has healing abilities that the warden simply lacks.
chitzk0i
Explorer
Personally, I think a lot of the powers printed are not really worth taking. I also believe that PHB1 has a higher percentage of terrible powers than later publications. I further believe that Betelgeuse was waxing in the house of Virgo, causing a convergence of suck in paladin utility powers for level two.
Erm... fighters? Technically they can mark with a ranged basic attack or a special-case like dragonborn breath weapons, but their mark does absolutely nothing besides the -2 if they aren't in melee range.
Goumindong
First Post
You're missing the distinction. The fighter can lay a mark on from range, the warden cannot. And if either can get close, the fighter can punish that enemy for attacking someone else[CC on shift] and the Warden cannot.
There is nothing wrong with Chaladin's either[they are easily on par as defenders as fighters if not the best pure defenders in the game]. They have great AC, lots of surges and their secondary stats aren't all that important[making str as a true secondary just fine so that you can pick up whatever attacks you really want. The only problem with the Paladin is that your mark is ineffective if you don't pump cha. Aside from that its has 2 primary and 1 secondary stats and you choose between one of the primary stats where as other classes have 1 primary and 2-3 secondary and you choose between the secondary stats. This would not be that big of a deal in the long run if your diving challenge were strength or charisma[or wisdom]. And that is even considering the lack of daily diversification
To me the biggest improvement has been in power design, hallmarked by the Avenger.
The Avenger has nearly all effect based dailies, and many all encounter type dailies. To me, these are the dailies that matter, they are the dailies I see everyone take regardless of class.
Further, the Avenger even has encounter powers with effects, and fun ones at that. For example, there is a 3rd level power that gives the Avenger phasing as an effect. Its an "attack power" but because of its effect, you can easily use it out of a combat. To me, that is great power design, I really hope to see more of it.
I think aftereffects were used much better to buff up many save ends powers. Save ends often don't last long enough (without item/orb buffs) to make them worth it, but aftereffects can completely change that dynamic.
The only place I feel the phb2 is strictly superior is the sorcerer vs the warlock. I've read the debates, but every time I read the sorcerer I see a better warlock. I have seen two warlocks played in games, and both have decided to switch characters.
I'll also pipe in that while I think the warden is better than the paladin (which I'm in the camp that says it definitely needs a boost in DP) it is certainly not better than the fighter.
Finally, just to throw a little more wood on the fire, while PHB2 has its stars, none of their classes (not even the mighty barbarian) can top the sheer raw power of the archer ranger. It is to me the most powerful class in the game (and also the most boring).
The Avenger has nearly all effect based dailies, and many all encounter type dailies. To me, these are the dailies that matter, they are the dailies I see everyone take regardless of class.
Further, the Avenger even has encounter powers with effects, and fun ones at that. For example, there is a 3rd level power that gives the Avenger phasing as an effect. Its an "attack power" but because of its effect, you can easily use it out of a combat. To me, that is great power design, I really hope to see more of it.
I think aftereffects were used much better to buff up many save ends powers. Save ends often don't last long enough (without item/orb buffs) to make them worth it, but aftereffects can completely change that dynamic.
The only place I feel the phb2 is strictly superior is the sorcerer vs the warlock. I've read the debates, but every time I read the sorcerer I see a better warlock. I have seen two warlocks played in games, and both have decided to switch characters.
I'll also pipe in that while I think the warden is better than the paladin (which I'm in the camp that says it definitely needs a boost in DP) it is certainly not better than the fighter.
Finally, just to throw a little more wood on the fire, while PHB2 has its stars, none of their classes (not even the mighty barbarian) can top the sheer raw power of the archer ranger. It is to me the most powerful class in the game (and also the most boring).
Flipguarder
First Post
I'd say that really, REALLY depends on your definition of powerful. dprRoverratedimo.
yesnomu
First Post
I'll echo what other people have said here, the PHB2 classes seem better laid out and designed, but not actually more powerful. My last three characters have all been from the PHB2, but I play back to back with classes that aren't and we seem to come out about the same. (The Warlord has better spot heals than my Shaman, but he can't spread the hurt out as well, for example.)
Flipguarder
First Post
my pov about class balance:
1. Basically everybody is fine if you aren't a big mix/maxer
2. Warlocks simply don't have enough damage attached to their abilities
3. Paladins have a severe and unnecessary case of MAD.
4. Ranged weapon users should not do as much damage as melee weapon users due to the fact that they have the advantage of being ranged.
1. Basically everybody is fine if you aren't a big mix/maxer
2. Warlocks simply don't have enough damage attached to their abilities
3. Paladins have a severe and unnecessary case of MAD.
4. Ranged weapon users should not do as much damage as melee weapon users due to the fact that they have the advantage of being ranged.
Otterscrubber
First Post
1) I agree
2) Not sure I agree, whenever we've had a warlock in the group they have dealt significant damage while also remained the hardest to kill.
3) What is MAD? Even without know thign, I'm going to agree though
4) I found a melee ranger x-classed to fighter dished out a ton of hurt, especially with Storm Warden as the paragon path and scimitar dance. Would deal significant damage even if all attacks missed. I keep hearing about the ranged ranger dishing it out though even more, but I"m not sure how.....
