Keefe the Thief
Hero
I love this differentiation: here we have the 4e fanboys buying books nigh-unseen, there the "normal" gamer populace.
No, wait. I dont.
PHB2 comes in at number 28 on USA Today top 150 list
- Thread starter filthgrinder
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I love this differentiation: here we have the 4e fanboys buying books nigh-unseen, there the "normal" gamer populace.
No, wait. I dont.
Shemeska
Adventurer
Methinks the nerdrage is strong in this one.
My last post was something called hyperbole folks, please don't assume I was being entirely serious.
If anything, I was trying to slide in an interpretation of the sales ranking that wasn't among the 'omg 4e wins' side of things just to poke at that POV because frankly the data doesn't allow anyone to definatively claim much of anything, victory or otherwise as some might like to.We can't compare the ranking to 3e (and someone correct me if I'm wrong here) because the 3e books were never included in previous rankings to my knowledge. And the amazon rankings might as well be comparing apples to oranges between 3e and 4e, simply as the nature of online sales versus physical FLGS sales has so dramatically changed in the last decade.
Jack99
Adventurer
But the 3.x books were on the USA top150 list, as I (amongst others) have posted on these very boards. So there is a basis for comparison.
Jack99
Adventurer
Here is the link to one of my previous posts: Click me!
Relevant info quoted below:
There you go. Is this ironclad information? Of course not. But considering the economic climate, I find it hard to dismiss 4e as nothing but a success. Especially note the 4e Gift Set alone basically perfomed equal to what 3.0 and 3.5.
Also note the 3.5 PHB2 compared to the 4e PHB2.
Cheers
did.
Relevant info quoted below:
There you go. Is this ironclad information? Of course not. But considering the economic climate, I find it hard to dismiss 4e as nothing but a success. Especially note the 4e Gift Set alone basically perfomed equal to what 3.0 and 3.5.
Also note the 3.5 PHB2 compared to the 4e PHB2.
Cheers
did.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
The comparison doesn't really mean anything significant, though. I mean, you can do it for the sake of doing it, and it might be a point of interest, but beyond curiosity, you can't make much of an inference.
Well, I guess you could say that people are still buying a good amount of D&D books, so 4e has demonstrably not been a catastrophic failure, but anyone who wants to argue that 4e has been a catastrophic failure already has to overcome a lot of data to the contrary, so this doesn't add much to the argument.
"People still went to the movies during the Depression" was on my original list. I guess I can also add, "Parents are still willing to spend (an unreasonable amount of) money on their kids' happiness during a recession", assuming WOTC's accessibility strategy is working at all.
I can accept the basic concept that personal entertainment expenditures don't get crushed as badly as the rest of the retail market during a downturn. What I'm not understanding, though, is who exactly is buying what amounts to a series of $30-40 textbooks with their "fun budget"? Not kids, not newbies? Old-timers that are already hooked on D&D as a brand, right? (The same people that polled as "planning to spend $0 on D&D4e in 2009" on ENW?)
If you make the comparison with movie and video game expenditures, then in fairness you have to point out that movies/vidgames represent "prepackaged fun", while RPG rulebooks are only "potential fun" (assuming that you can find a large enough group of gamer friends that don't suck, and are willing to spend substantial amounts of time not playing, but rather writing game scenarios, and scheduling meeting places/times that are awkward for the least number of people...)
If we try for a more apples-to-apples comparison, and look at 4e module sales, the situation becomes even more murky... If "the game" is doing well, then why aren't the mods selling? A canned scenario is closer to a movie/vidgame in that it's "prepackaged fun" as well as "cheaper" (the argument that they should be priced in the $15-18 range, rather than $25-30, is a separate topic, I guess...). Less investment, less frustration, and hence a better indicator of a "recession hobby", yes?
I can accept the basic concept that personal entertainment expenditures don't get crushed as badly as the rest of the retail market during a downturn. What I'm not understanding, though, is who exactly is buying what amounts to a series of $30-40 textbooks with their "fun budget"? Not kids, not newbies? Old-timers that are already hooked on D&D as a brand, right? (The same people that polled as "planning to spend $0 on D&D4e in 2009" on ENW?)
If you make the comparison with movie and video game expenditures, then in fairness you have to point out that movies/vidgames represent "prepackaged fun", while RPG rulebooks are only "potential fun" (assuming that you can find a large enough group of gamer friends that don't suck, and are willing to spend substantial amounts of time not playing, but rather writing game scenarios, and scheduling meeting places/times that are awkward for the least number of people...)
If we try for a more apples-to-apples comparison, and look at 4e module sales, the situation becomes even more murky... If "the game" is doing well, then why aren't the mods selling? A canned scenario is closer to a movie/vidgame in that it's "prepackaged fun" as well as "cheaper" (the argument that they should be priced in the $15-18 range, rather than $25-30, is a separate topic, I guess...). Less investment, less frustration, and hence a better indicator of a "recession hobby", yes?
Stormtower
First Post
This is pretty darn cool news, and (to me, at least) indicates that even though I disagree with a few of the 4E design decisions, WotC may yet be able to penetrate new markets and grow the culture of tabletop D&D.
Based purely on my own anecdotal evidence, I have noticed that the art, layout and presentation of 4E has attracted the younger set (a couple 15-16yr. old teens, and a 19-yr. old) in a way that my beloved 3.5 never did. Given that, I am extremely curious what else WotC/Hasbro has in mind to attract, retain and excite younger people as customers. As a disproportionate ratio of ENWorld posters are DMs, our population sample here keenly understands how important it is to teach and develop new DMs. I would be fascinated to see a demographic breakdown of purchasers, but I doubt such info is readily available.
Congrats to the 4E design team, and may D&D continue to grow.
Based purely on my own anecdotal evidence, I have noticed that the art, layout and presentation of 4E has attracted the younger set (a couple 15-16yr. old teens, and a 19-yr. old) in a way that my beloved 3.5 never did. Given that, I am extremely curious what else WotC/Hasbro has in mind to attract, retain and excite younger people as customers. As a disproportionate ratio of ENWorld posters are DMs, our population sample here keenly understands how important it is to teach and develop new DMs. I would be fascinated to see a demographic breakdown of purchasers, but I doubt such info is readily available.
Congrats to the 4E design team, and may D&D continue to grow.
Silverblade The Ench
First Post
Look, you obviously cannot play Conan in 4th ed because:
1) Crom is not a god in any D&D book, since the very rare hard to get 2nd ed Conan adventures (grr, bought a Grenadier fire giant instead back then, now look at the price onf those AD&D Conan books on EBay *cry*).
Crom isn't mentioned in the Manual of the Planes!! WHY!?
His clerics should obviously have the "Toe Jam Stomp" daily that Le Sprague De Camp so wonderously showed their deity has, but noooo! WOTC couldn't add that! Bah, obviously saving it for PHB 4!
2) There is no "Loincloth of Nut-Warming", which is the artifact Conan had on all of his adventures, as indeed, Vallejo took such great pride in painting!
3) There are no "female mammary glands of EXCEPTIONAL size and appeal in 4th ed illustrations"
This is completely against the canon and IP of Conan!!!
If Valeria doesn't have her "Twin Peak Strike" Power, then you cannot play Conan in 4th ed!!
4) And as everyone knows, you cannot roleplay in 4th ed, so that ruins Conan! I mean, there's no skill check for saying "Crom!", in a meaningful way (No Perform skill!!), NOR are Hyperborean or Stygian official languages in D&D!
5) There is no "Humorous side kick" class in 4th ed, meh!
In 4th ed halflings can DO things, instead of being dragged all over Mordor like a limp bloody biscuit!!
Last time I go on a "C.M.O.T Dibblah's Magical Mystery Gollum Tour", I can tell you!
I never even SAW a golem on the whole damn trip! Just a low hit dice mutant version of a Meazel with Low Light Vision and klepto-bloody-mania...and a thing for fish!
HA! there's another thing to prove 4th ed sucks: no iron golems in the 1st MM!! Bah, when I were a lad, we were fighting Iron Golems right off the bat! Even if we didn't know what the posion did, talk about cryptic rules....we died, but we LIKED dying!!!
None of this [W] stuff, oh no!!
Just "Beholders have 45-75 hit points" and spending months trying to figure out WTH that meant in regards to hit dice and saving throws!!
We were hard core cryptozoollogist cryptologist mathematicians!
Bah! Conan says he! Humbug, HUMBUG, says I!
*whistles innocently...*
1) Crom is not a god in any D&D book, since the very rare hard to get 2nd ed Conan adventures (grr, bought a Grenadier fire giant instead back then, now look at the price onf those AD&D Conan books on EBay *cry*).
Crom isn't mentioned in the Manual of the Planes!! WHY!?
His clerics should obviously have the "Toe Jam Stomp" daily that Le Sprague De Camp so wonderously showed their deity has, but noooo! WOTC couldn't add that! Bah, obviously saving it for PHB 4!
2) There is no "Loincloth of Nut-Warming", which is the artifact Conan had on all of his adventures, as indeed, Vallejo took such great pride in painting!
3) There are no "female mammary glands of EXCEPTIONAL size and appeal in 4th ed illustrations"
This is completely against the canon and IP of Conan!!!
If Valeria doesn't have her "Twin Peak Strike" Power, then you cannot play Conan in 4th ed!!
4) And as everyone knows, you cannot roleplay in 4th ed, so that ruins Conan! I mean, there's no skill check for saying "Crom!", in a meaningful way (No Perform skill!!), NOR are Hyperborean or Stygian official languages in D&D!
5) There is no "Humorous side kick" class in 4th ed, meh!
In 4th ed halflings can DO things, instead of being dragged all over Mordor like a limp bloody biscuit!!
Last time I go on a "C.M.O.T Dibblah's Magical Mystery Gollum Tour", I can tell you!
I never even SAW a golem on the whole damn trip! Just a low hit dice mutant version of a Meazel with Low Light Vision and klepto-bloody-mania...and a thing for fish!
HA! there's another thing to prove 4th ed sucks: no iron golems in the 1st MM!! Bah, when I were a lad, we were fighting Iron Golems right off the bat! Even if we didn't know what the posion did, talk about cryptic rules....we died, but we LIKED dying!!!
None of this [W] stuff, oh no!!
Just "Beholders have 45-75 hit points" and spending months trying to figure out WTH that meant in regards to hit dice and saving throws!!
We were hard core cryptozoollogist cryptologist mathematicians!
Bah! Conan says he! Humbug, HUMBUG, says I!
*whistles innocently...*
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Wormwood
Adventurer
<snip the awesome>
*whistles innocently...*
*applauds sincerely*
cignus_pfaccari
First Post
Bah! Conan says he! Humbug, HUMBUG, says I!
*whistles innocently...*
Okay, that was XP worthy.
Brad
- Status
