D&D 3E/3.5 PHB3.5 UMD example question

[ThirdWizard]

+21 takes a major investment

7 ranks in UMD
5 ranks in Spellcraft
5 ranks in Decipher Script
Skill Foucs (Use Magic Device)
That +2/+2 feat
20 Charisma

And, that's only for scrolls. It's +17 for a non-scroll. That's with two skill feats, and an 18 Charisma with a +2 Charisma item.

 

[Sil]

Again thanks for your help.
Since we are a bit of topic....

Although, I must say there is some validity to the argument that UMD can't be used for such a device...

What part of the rules for UMD diagree with the example that clarify the rules for UMD?

 

[Tatsukun]

Again thanks for your help.
Since we are a bit of topic....
What part of the rules for UMD diagree with the example that clarify the rules for UMD?

Someone said it before, in short, UMD lets you act as though you had a class feature. It doesn't actually let you use that feature. A PC can pretend to have fireball on his spell list, but he can't actually cast fireball.

If the chalice just requires you to be able to turn undead, UMD will work fine. If it required you to actually turn undead ("channel the energy") you can't do it.

-Tatsu

 

[Sil]

This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.

This, combined with the clarifying example, which is not in the SRD, makes it clear that you can use class features to meet items activation requirements. You just cant use class features for anything else.

So while you can focus positive energy into the chalice, you cant hold the chalice, focuse your positive energy, and miss the chalice and hit the undead with it, or anything else of the sort.

 

[glass]

Does it not seem strange that a UMD user can activate the item more times than the actual class?

It would, but I don't believe they can.

My interpretation would be that a character who used UMD to emulate a class feature would have TU for the purposes of activating MI. But, they would still have 0 actual turning attempts available, so if the item actually require TU attempts to be spent, they still couldn't activate it.


glass.

 

[Sil]

The text of the PHB, pg 86, disagrees with you.

 

[glass]

The text of the PHB, pg 86, disagrees with you.

It does? I'll have to check that when I get home.

If it does, then I agree it's very strange!


glass.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Disgrees with me, too. That's why I use salt. Helps keep the stomach settled.

I'd like to say that the choice of example is extremely poor. It is not technically RAW, merely an illustration of RAW. Like tables. Which are trumped by text. I know that this is a semantic arguement, one which will be (and already has in this thread) discounted. It does, however, solve nicely the problem of the UMD user being able to repeatedly use the device (at risk of failure, sure, but after 10th level that risk is minimal) while the class it was designed for cannot. It also does not seriously hamper the way that UMD works because this type of issue will not come up very often (I can think of no other examples right now).

In this situation, if it came up IMC, I would rule UMD to work this way. My 2cp.

 

[glass]

The text of the PHB, pg 86, disagrees with you.

It does? I'll have to check that when I get home.

Ah, I see. The text doesn't disagree with me, the example does. Per the rules of primary sources, if the text and the example do not agree, the text take precedence.

Of course, the example is still very strange, it's just wrong.


glass.

 

[glass]

Called out.

The "cant use" line is to prohibit any use other than activate items. You cant emulate being a cleric, and turn undead, while NEAR a magic item or some such. The next sentance says "It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature." So for the purpose of activating magic items only, you have that feature and can use that feature to activate items, only.

Un-called out.

It doesn't say you can only use the ability to activate items. It says you can't use the ability. The item in the example requires the user to channel positive energy, which is clearly prohibited by the 'no use' paragraph. The example is wrong, Ovinomancer and I are right.


glass.