D&D 3E/3.5 PHB3.5 UMD example question

[Sil]

Well if you cant use it, then how do you activate the item that requires it?

 

[glass]

Well if you cant use it, then how do you activate the item that requires it?

If the item just requires you to have the ability, then you 'pretend' you have it. That is what the UMD skill is for.

If the item actually requires you to use the ability, which UMD explicitly does not allow you to do, then you can't activate the item. That is kinda the point.

EDIT: Are you suggesting that UMD does allow you to use class abilities you can emulate?


glass.

 

[Sil]

What makes you think you are fooling it?

Does not the example make it clear that you actualy have the abilitiy, and actualy use it, but only to activate the item? The item example was made illustrate that.

I agree that if you have a different idea of how UMD should work, then just add salt, and change it.

But the rules seem very clear Lidda did get the TU ability, and could only use it to make holy water.

Nothing in the rules suggest you "pretend" anything.

I suggest the "Can't use" means that unless the item can use (or requires) the emulation to access its powers, you "Can't use" it.

 

[apesamongus]

Well if you cant use it, then how do you activate the item that requires it?

I'e been trying to think of an analogy.
2 situations...
1. a government law that allows you to get good tax rates if you own a waterfall.
2. a hydro-electric plant that makes lots of cheap energy from a waterfall.

If you can forge a good document that says you own a waterfall, then you can get the good tax rate, but you're still never going to get the cheap power unless there's some actual water falling somewhere.

 

[Sil]

apesamongus;
I am sure that is an excellent illustration, I just dont understand it. Please explain.

 

[Tiberius]

Let's say I'm Lidda. In the first situation, I can use the UMD skill to emulate the cleric's ability to turn undead (forging the waterfall documentation) to power the chalice (get a good tax rate). In the second example, I really need to turn some undead, so I emulate the turning feature (own a hydroelectric plant), but in actuality have 0 turning attempts per day, so I can't do anything with it (have insufficent water to generate power).

 

[Sil]

Well, thanks for explaining. I am feeling really dumb, as neither the analogy or the clarification does not seem to make any sense to me.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Does that mean you could emulate any class feature for the purposes of using a magical item?

What about a magical item that when a 0th level spell slot is expended spits out a gold coin? What about a magical item that when a 0th level spell is cast on it by the user spits out a gold coin?

I'm not really sold on either of these yet, though I could be convinced of the first more easily than the second, I suppose.

 

[apesamongus]

Does that mean you could emulate any class feature for the purposes of using a magical item?

What about a magical item that when a 0th level spell slot is expended spits out a gold coin? What about a magical item that when a 0th level spell is cast on it by the user spits out a gold coin?

I'm not really sold on either of these yet, though I could be convinced of the first more easily than the second, I suppose.

The second is definitely out. The first is analogous to the example given of the chalice - and I think that example is stupid.

Edit: forgot to add... so, technically, the first should work. Either that or they should put a less stupid example in the book.

 

[apesamongus]

Well, thanks for explaining. I am feeling really dumb, as neither the analogy or the clarification does not seem to make any sense to me.

If the chalice was explained to work as "Can be used by anyone who can channel positive energy to turn undead, because they have experience and understanding of the flows of positive energy and are blessed by the gods of goodyness," then UMD obviously works. You're just presenting evidence (falsified by UMD) that you should be able to use the chalice. Those are the forged documents saying you own the waterfall. Whoever makes those decisions (or whatever mystical, impersonal judge evaluates magical usage) has been fooled.

On the other hand, the example actually says that you have to channel positive energy into the chalice to make it work. So, while Mr mystical judge thinks you should be able to use the chalice, you never actually pump any positive energy into it, because you don't have any handy - but if you did, you'd be able to fake using it correctly. This is like the powerplant. Sure, you might be able to convince everyone that you own a waterfall, and from that you could get the permits to build a powerplant and maybe even get a loan from the bank, but once you get it built, it's still not going to make any power, because just faking the documentation doesn't make the turbines turn without some actual water flowing.