D&D 5E Philosophy: Devil's Sight

[jgsugden]

Note that they made an intentional decision to have Devil's Sight work differently than Dark Vision. It is superior, in many ways. It was intended that a Warlock with access to Drkness would get the advantages they get.

I'm not saying that everything we see in play was intentional - I believe the dim light / Devil's Sight was an oversight (well, actually, an undersight). However, a lot of what people complain about was intentional - and is not disruptive.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Something I thought of this morning is what happens beyond the 120 feet...

Suddenly, darkness is dark again. It would be like seeing "normally" and then suddenly hitting a very dark or opaque wall or something. It is the same issue with DV as well.

It preserves the value of the third consequence of Skulker...

Clutch!

It is still valuable, regardless of how DS or DV works.

 

[DND_Reborn]

That's pretty interesting, philosophically. Like, the candle radiance is suppressed for normal sight, but not suppressed for Devil's Sight. Paradoxical.

It implies the radiance is changed - tainted somehow - rather than blocked. Or maybe the effect is on the viewer?

The problem with magical sight is we can't really imagine how something might work that is beyond our experience. How can we see normally into a darkness beyond the dim light, but not have the dim light in between affected?

 

[tetrasodium]

Note that they made an intentional decision to have Devil's Sight work differently than Dark Vision. It is superior, in many ways. It was intended that a Warlock with access to Drkness would get the advantages they get.

I'm not saying that everything we see in play was intentional - I believe the dim light / Devil's Sight was an oversight (well, actually, an undersight). However, a lot of what people complain about was intentional - and is not disruptive.

If only there was already some kind of vision beyond dark vision, maybe one so good that it had to come with daylight sensitivity for balance reasons, perhaps this hypothetical "superior darkvision" ability could even be baked into one of the core phb races & various non-phb races.... WotC could have used such a thing to properly balance devils sight rather than treating it like yet another an ability the GM grants his girlfriend if such an ability existed.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If only there was already some kind of vision beyond dark vision, maybe one so good that it had to come with daylight sensitivity for balance reasons, perhaps this hypothetical "superior darkvision" ability could even be baked into one of the core phb races & various non-phb races.... WotC could have used such a thing to properly balance devils sight rather than treating it like yet another an ability the GM grants his girlfriend if such an ability existed.

This is called a hangup. It’s not a reasonable argument or complaint.

Also, the DMs girlfriend trope is tired and sexist, and frankly was never particularly convincing or interesting.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I can tell you immediately, "No." But that is because my experience with 3E was less than one year's worth, back in around 2006-2007 or so. I never touched 3.5E or 4E. I've only been playing 5E a bit over a year now.

Well, as someone who did play those editions, I can tell you that more concrete and fleshed out rules don’t reduce issues at the table.

I do run 5e games for kids as the library, though, and they don’t have much issue with 5e’s natural language. If something works differently than they expect, I simply tell them that it’s written in such a way as to not try to cover every edge case and just let the people at the table play how they want, and they just accept that and move on.

 

[tetrasodium]

This is called a hangup. It’s not a reasonable argument or complaint.

Also, the DMs girlfriend trope is tired and sexist, and frankly was never particularly convincing or interesting.

Your right, nobody could possibly forsee what would happen if you gave eb extra blasts rather than dice, added the ability to add cha to each blast, and had it scale based on character rather than class level... Except the genius who avoided that problem with making sure fighter extra attack scales on fighter levels only. The list of warlock and warloxk/sorcerer completely predictable things like that are simply too numerous and glaring to file under any reasonable excuse other than the trope I mentioned.

Most importantly, I can't help but notice that you completely overlooked the fact that superior dark vision is a thing and unlike devils sight had actual attempts to ensure that it was balanced.

Say what you want about the gms girlfriend trope, it exists for a reason and I've never seen a gender neutral equivalent that encapsulated what the trope represents nearly as well as it.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Well, as someone who did play those editions, I can tell you that more concrete and fleshed out rules don’t reduce issues at the table.

I do run 5e games for kids as the library, though, and they don’t have much issue with 5e’s natural language. If something works differently than they expect, I simply tell them that it’s written in such a way as to not try to cover every edge case and just let the people at the table play how they want, and they just accept that and move on.

Well, of course, every table is different. We had issues even in 1E and 2E, certainly. My point is there are a lot of rules missing or incomplete or vague, left yo to the DM and table to figure out. I understand much of this was intentional, but for myself I would prefer more concrete rules to argue over!

DS could have been written "Your character treats darkness as if it were bright light up to 120 feet away. It has no affect on dim light conditions." if that was their intent.

Most importantly, I can't help but notice that you completely overlooked the fact that superior dark vision is a thing and unlike devils sight had actual attempts to ensure that it was balanced.

Except DS is balanced, especially if you rule it has no affect on dim light (which is the SA for those who care) which DV does help with. Warlocks have few eldritch invocations at their disposal, one of them allowing the PC to see in the dark is hardly overbalancing IMO and IME. If your players with DV are whining about it, remind them that they are liking getting it at no cost as part of their race.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Your right, nobody could possibly forsee what would happen if you gave eb extra blasts rather than dice, added the ability to add cha to each blast, and had it scale based on character rather than class level... Except the genius who avoided that problem with making sure fighter extra attack scales on fighter levels only. The list of warlock and warloxk/sorcerer completely predictable things like that are simply too numerous and glaring to file under any reasonable excuse other than the trope I mentioned.

Most importantly, I can't help but notice that you completely overlooked the fact that superior dark vision is a thing and unlike devils sight had actual attempts to ensure that it was balanced.

Say what you want about the gms girlfriend trope, it exists for a reason and I've never seen a gender neutral equivalent that encapsulated what the trope represents nearly as well as it.

I’m sorry, but this is just whining. Neither class is unbalanced (most CharOp communities consider both to be 2nd or 3rd tier at best), and even MCd together it’s far from overpowered. It’s literally just...cooler than you apparently want PCs to be able to be?

But wizards will often outshine the “coffeelock” anyway, so...oh well.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Well, of course, every table is different. We had issues even in 1E and 2E, certainly. My point is there are a lot of rules missing or incomplete or vague, left yo to the DM and table to figure out. I understand much of this was intentional, but for myself I would prefer more concrete rules to argue over!

DS could have been written "Your character treats darkness as if it were bright light up to 120 feet away. It has no affect on dim light conditions." if that was their intent.



Except DS is balanced, especially if you rule it has no affect on dim light (which is the SA for those who care) which DV does help with. Warlocks have few eldritch invocations at their disposal, one of them allowing the PC to see in the dark is hardly overbalancing IMO and IME. If your players with DV are whining about it, remind them that they are liking getting it at no cost as part of their race.

I prefer the wording as is. Seeing normally in darkness, including magical darkness, is just more interesting exactly because you aren’t treating it as bright light. It isn’t giving your eyes greater sensitivity to light. It is a wholly unnatural ability to simply see in darkness. Even when that darkness is the absolute darkness created by magic, where no amount of light sensitivity will help you, you just...see normally. It’s creepy, and unnatural, and doesn’t interact with the world, which makes it perfect.